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 Post subject: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First name: Mike
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I really like this stuff, but would like to buy it by the gallon. Seems overall cost should be lower than buying by the quart. Anybody have a source?

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I just always bought Mohawk. Here's the gallon and 5 gallon pails. Pretty sure they make Behlen's...in quart and spray, Mohawk in qt, gal and 5 gal. I've heard it said that the Behlen's is a bit yellower, but couldn't prove it by me. Worked the same for me.

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog ... ictNbr=223

Here's the Behlen's site...

https://www.shellac.net/instrument_lacquer_howto.html

Note that the qt SKU # for Behlen's is B611-1406 and Mohawk is M610-1406. I'm thinking they are the same.

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Last edited by Haans on Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Walnut
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I'll check and see if it's available in gallon cans when I go back to work next week. I work for the company that makes Behlen and Mohawk.

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Koa
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Mohawk Classic Instrument Lacquer is available directly from Mohawk in quart, gallon, and 5 gallon containers. Call Mohawk to establish a business account - once done, orders may be placed online. If I recall correctly, our price for 8 gallons (multiples of 2 gallons are the most cost effective for shipping) is about $42 per gallon delivered from North Carolina to the DC area. As mentioned, Behlens and Mohawk instrument lacquers are identical.

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Last edited by Woodie G on Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I'm surprised they don't give more of a price break for 5 gallon pails on the Mohawk.



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: david farmer (Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:47 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First name: Mike
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I appreciate the help. I did not know Mohawk was same as Behlen. But I did notice searches returned both. I think I have turned the corner on waterborn finishes. I do like them, but I cant deal with blue haze or the issues with non-burn in. Biggest downer with nitro is fumes. I figured out how to deal with that. I have yet to find a warmer finish than nitro.


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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You could tint the waterborne with Mohawk ultra penetrating stain to warm it up. An interesting article on waterborne finishes: https://thefinishingstore.com/blogs/new ... ro-and-con
It sounds like you can spray double coats by spraying a hanger coat and then spraying again before the first coat sets up to build some thickness similar to what we do for nitro.


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:11 am 
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Koa
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Oops! Corrected my post for 'cost per gallon' - about $42 PER GALLON delivered. Costs go up 2%-3% on all products per Mohawk later this month, so best to contact them and get things set up. I don't have the account login handy, but if I recall, B2B pricing is about 70% of consumer direct. Considering that Woodcraft and other sources range from $19-$22 per per quart for Behlens before shipping, $40 or so per gallon is not that bad.

General Finishes Enduro-Var is a single component waterborne urethane that can be sprayed or brushed on over epoxy fill, latex fill, or on raw wood, has a slight amber tint, and when cured, sands and buffs nicely and looks more like lacquer than any of the other lacquer substitutes we've used or seen. As a bonus, Enduro-Var is nearly as tough as 2K and 3K urethane and polyester finishes, buffing more like a polyester than a waterborne urethane. Woodcraft carries the product in pints, quarts, and gallons, although it can be found online from jet.com and other sources as well.

John Greven has long championed waterborne finishes, and went to Enduro-Var 4-5 years ago. His latest method is brush application over SamaN latex filler, although he has used spray application over System 3 SilverTip (our method), as well as brushed over epoxy. Mr. Greven builds close to 70 instruments a year, so has a pretty good baseline of guitars in use with the finish.

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:36 am 
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I was just on the Mohawk site yesterday & set up an account.

If you order less than $85 they'll tack on an additional $10 service fee.

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:41 am 
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Walnut
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Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Woodie G is right. I just spoke with our Mohawk Technical Service Rep, Phillip Pritchard, and he informed me that Behlen Stringed Instrument Lacquer and Mohawk Classic Instrument Lacquer are the same formula. Also, the Behlen product is indeed available by the gallon, part number B611-1407. However, many dealers don't stock the gallon size. As klooker suggests, setting up an account is worth looking into.

If anyone has any questions about any of the Behlen or Mohawk products, please feel free to give Phillip Pritchard a call at 828-261-0325, extension 1907. He loves to talk to the end users of our products and can help if you're having problems or have questions on which product to use for a particular application.

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Mike Fields


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:55 am 
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Mahogany
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Great info, Mike! I've recently returned to Behlen, but have always wanted to purchase by the gallon. So it sounds like I can get either Mohawk or Behlen and be fuming myself with my favorite voc's!

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:06 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Is there a Satin finish in either Behlens or Mohawk?


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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They may not offer it in instrument lacquer, but they do sell flatting paste:

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog ... ictNbr=260


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:50 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Clay S. wrote:
They may not offer it in instrument lacquer, but they do sell flatting paste:

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog ... ictNbr=260


The Product Data Sheet does not mention 610-1406. Not sure it can be used.

I'm having trouble finding the link to sign up for better pricing. (never mind... I see I have to call them)


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:38 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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cs51762 wrote:
Woodie G is right. I just spoke with our Mohawk Technical Service Rep, Phillip Pritchard, and he informed me that Behlen Stringed Instrument Lacquer and Mohawk Classic Instrument Lacquer are the same formula. Also, the Behlen product is indeed available by the gallon, part number B611-1407. However, many dealers don't stock the gallon size. As klooker suggests, setting up an account is worth looking into.

If anyone has any questions about any of the Behlen or Mohawk products, please feel free to give Phillip Pritchard a call at 828-261-0325, extension 1907. He loves to talk to the end users of our products and can help if you're having problems or have questions on which product to use for a particular application.



I will be calling. Could you see if the flatting material can be used in 610-1406?


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Koa
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Mike, a heads up. I PM'ed the author and this may be relevant to you. I don't know the details but will be trying to get info from the manufacture on when the bad batch is/was. I'll share it if I find out.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/defective-nitro-lacquer-alert.1882552/


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:52 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Clay S. wrote:
It sounds like you can spray double coats by spraying a hanger coat and then spraying again before the first coat sets up to build some thickness similar to what we do for nitro.


Yes, I always sprayed the top, then ribs, then back, neck, and ribs again, then back, then neck again. It worked out well. Thing about Mohawk is straight from the can, I'd end up with 12-14 coats total. I'd shoot 5 or 6, drop fill, let it sit for a few days sand with 600, shoot 4-5 more, level with 1000 grit, spray 10% thinned 4 coats, let it sit for a month, sand 2000 grit and buff. Never used any of that sealer stuff.
I've heard that McFadden's and Cardinal have a higher solids content and build faster...

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Koa
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Seagrams must have higher solids. I’m always amazed at how many costs I hear builders say they spray. With McFaddens/Seagrams I spray usually 5 and then level sand and buff. If pores show up again a year later, there is still enough to level again a rebuff. I thin very little.


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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:44 am 
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Koa
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Mohawk Classic Instrument Lacquer is about 13% solids by volume, and we thin 25% with no retarder for 72 degree F and 59% RH, so about 10% solids by volume as applied. A wet coat of thinned Mohawk shows a 4 to 5 mil film thickness with a wet film gauge, so dried coats give 0.4 to 0.5 mil per coat, or about 10 coats total to build to the 4-5 mil target that gives a 3.5 to 4 mil finish after buffing. Usual schedule is 8 full, wet coats on the top and 10 full, wet on the body and neck.

McFaddens/Seagrave is about 20% solids by volume if the MSDS we have is still accurate for the new product, and when we have used old McFaddens product for partial refinishes, it does seem to build faster than the Mohawk. Looking back as the finish schedule used circa 2009-2010, it looks like the McFaddens was thinned 15% and no retarder for 72 deg F and 50% RH, and four coats were applied to top and 5 to body.

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 Post subject: Re: Behlen's Lacquer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:10 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Woodie G wrote:
Mohawk Classic Instrument Lacquer is about 13% solids by volume, and we thin 25% with no retarder for 72 degree F and 59% RH, so about 10% solids by volume as applied. A wet coat of thinned Mohawk shows a 4 to 5 mil film thickness with a wet film gauge, so dried coats give 0.4 to 0.5 mil per coat, or about 10 coats total to build to the 4-5 mil target that gives a 3.5 to 4 mil finish after buffing. Usual schedule is 8 full, wet coats on the top and 10 full, wet on the body and neck.

McFaddens/Seagrave is about 20% solids by volume if the MSDS we have is still accurate for the new product, and when we have used old McFaddens product for partial refinishes, it does seem to build faster than the Mohawk. Looking back as the finish schedule used circa 2009-2010, it looks like the McFaddens was thinned 15% and no retarder for 72 deg F and 50% RH, and four coats were applied to top and 5 to body.


I must be doing something wrong. With nitro, I rarely get a film. I mean, it gets applied of course, but never appears to my eyes as a "film". It dries so fast.


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