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 Post subject: Re: Voicing ....
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:43 am
Posts: 121
rlrhett wrote:
On the live back thing, I’ll share a humorous story:

I had completed a guitar fairly late one night and was trying to play it is a little and shake out the gremlins. I thought the guitar sounded pretty good, but still green.

As I played the richness of tone improved. I’ve discovered counter intuitively that carbon fiber plays in like spruce, just over a period of months not decades. But never over the course of hours!

As I played I got more excited. I stopped feeling so tired and started playing with more energy and attention. The magic tone just faded away.

I was crushed. Psycho-acoustic or wishful thinking. I felt myself slump back into exhaustion. And it was BACK!! Seems like when I slumped forward the guitar sound louder and richer than when I sat up.

It took me a while to understand what was happening. In the end it was the “active” back interfacing with my “lack of activity” belly!!!

[FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY][FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY][FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]

Every time I felt tired I slumped creating space between me and the guitar. When I sat up I killed the back.

Does anyone know how to plate tune the player?


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 Post subject: Re: Voicing ....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:46 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 1908
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I will add this also.... Don't close your eyes to the fact that in the end - you are voicing "A Guitar" and not just "A Top."

There are a lot of knobs you can twiddle if you are that sort of person who can't leave well enough alone... We have talked about a few here.... But as I have made instruments - I have been amazed at how it is possible to "tune things in" somewhat... And then you start seeing some of the "tricks" that factory guitars use to get the tone (or lack thereof) which they do...

For example - the bridge is a critical component of the voicing of a guitar..... The weight and stiffness distribution has a giant impact on tone... Bridge bolts have a significant impact on tone because they add weight without stiffness... Notice how "early" bridge bolts were just small nuts and bolts to protect a flat bridge from peeling off a curved top... But then the manufacturers realized that these bridge bolts add weight to the bridge - which can "increase" the bass response of an otherwise stiff instrument... And now you see bridge bolts which are quite long and their attachment nuts are big heavy brass things rather than standard machine nuts.. Hmmm... They act a bit like a low pass filter.... These guys are fiddling with this weight to push a stiff, trebley guitar towards having some bass without ruining warranty...

That also explains why some Gibson guitars with those abominable gigantic adjustable bridges can sound pretty good.. The weight rounds out the bass in an otherwise super stiff structure. Remove that half pound of hardware and it makes the guitar louder - but way more trebley.. Then - you have to do a lot more other voicing work to push the balance of the instrument back towards where it was to start with... But when you do - you will probably lose some of the characteristic sound it had previously...


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 Post subject: Re: Voicing ....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 4708
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
For example - the bridge is a critical component of the voicing of a guitar..... The weight and stiffness distribution has a giant impact on tone... Bridge bolts have a significant impact on tone because they add weight without stiffness... Notice how "early" bridge bolts were just small nuts and bolts to protect a flat bridge from peeling off a curved top... But then the manufacturers realized that these bridge bolts add weight to the bridge - which can "increase" the bass response of an otherwise stiff instrument... And now you see bridge bolts which are quite long and their attachment nuts are big heavy brass things rather than standard machine nuts.. Hmmm... They act a bit like a low pass filter.... These guys are fiddling with this weight to push a stiff, trebley guitar towards having some bass without ruining warranty...

That also explains why some Gibson guitars with those abominable gigantic adjustable bridges can sound pretty good.. The weight rounds out the bass in an otherwise super stiff structure. Remove that half pound of hardware and it makes the guitar louder - but way more trebley.. Then - you have to do a lot more other voicing work to push the balance of the instrument back towards where it was to start with... But when you do - you will probably lose some of the characteristic sound it had previously...[/quote]

I would consider it quite an assumption that the factories are doing anything like that intentionally to manipulate tone. It might be a side effect, but I would very much doubt that that is the reason for doing any of those thing. Factory changes are usually based on cost and expediency. So unless you have heard a designer in a factory specifically state that that is the reason for those designs or spchanges, I would think it an assumption.


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 Post subject: Re: Voicing ....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 1908
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I don't know Ed... I think they know more than you think... Especially since they have to differentiate their product lines as part of selling stuff to customers for a living...

And Asia is not the same place it was 20 years ago. These guys are looking to play in the bog leagues - not just accept whatever leavings everybody else has...

Quite a few of these Asian guitar assemblers are hiring consultants (like our own Trevor) to help them understand the impact of the designs on tone... These aren't guys who are coming in to teach them high volume assembly or Lean/Indistrial engineering/Six Sigma/Quality to improve their efficiency, quality, and workmanship... These are guys coming in to

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Voicing ....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
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First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
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Well, who, with an interest in making decent guitars, would ever use bridge bolts in the first place?


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 Post subject: Re: Voicing ....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2155
The ones looking to play in the bog leagues.......


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 Post subject: Re: Voicing ....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1275
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
truckjohn wrote:
Quite a few of these Asian guitar assemblers are hiring consultants (like our own Trevor) to help them understand the impact of the designs on tone... These aren't guys who are coming in to teach them high volume assembly or Lean/Indistrial engineering/Six Sigma/Quality to improve their efficiency, quality, and workmanship...

Well, I do that, too. Previous lives and all that.

Funny thing is, when you get old, you find you've done a lot of different things...

The Asian factories work to whatever price point the brand requests. They can be just as good as anywhere else, if you want to pay the money.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au


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