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 Post subject: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:26 pm 
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I know some people are more sensitive than others, so far I haven't had any bad response. I'm wearing a painters mask, long sleeves, jeans, mechanic gloves and leather shoes (I usually where shorts a t shirt and sneakers and gloves for certain operations when dealing with the soundboard because my hands sweat a lot). when I leave the shop I drop all my clothes right into the washing machine and start the cycle. I'm wondering if I should get the tyvek suit just to be safe. I've been handling it now making rosettes for the past week or so and the back and side plates have been dimensioned. Would Tyvek be overkill at this point? I'm mainly worried about the hand sanding from here on out. All appointments on both these guitars is coco- head plates, rosettes, fretboards and bridges.

Which brings me to the next question. Is it the oil in coco that acts as the vector for the irritant or is it the dust itself? Any precautions need to be taken with the fretboard? Maybe a wax or something to seal it? I'd hate for someone to be pissed off at me because the guitar I built them caused a huge rash on the guy's hand. I don't know why but all of the sudden today I got a little paranoid.


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:53 pm 
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There a couple allergenic compounds that are in the oil in cocobolo wood which are then carried in dust from cutting or sanding the wood.

I did a quick search for research papers on contact allergic responses to cocobolo and found reported instances of contact allergic reactions in players of recorders made of cocobolo, players of flutes with cocobolo mouthpieces, and in wearers of cocobolo jewelry such as necklaces. Since guitars players rarely use their mouths on the fretboard, the flute and recorder examples are probably not so relevant. The jewelry example could be, but exposure with jewelry is probably extended and the skin that's typically in contact with jewelry is probably more sensitive than the fingertips.

This topic came up in a thread on cocobolo fretboards over the AGF a few years ago. Kent Chasson said that at that time he had at least 30 guitars with cocobolo boards out in use with no reported problems. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239236



These users thanked the author J De Rocher for the post (total 2): fingerstyle1978 (Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:11 pm) • pat macaluso (Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:07 pm 
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fingerstyle1978 wrote:
I know some people are more sensitive than others, so far I haven't had any bad response. I'm wearing a painters mask, long sleeves, jeans, mechanic gloves and leather shoes (I usually where shorts a t shirt and sneakers and gloves for certain operations when dealing with the soundboard because my hands sweat a lot). when I leave the shop I drop all my clothes right into the washing machine and start the cycle. I'm wondering if I should get the tyvek suit just to be safe. I've been handling it now making rosettes for the past week or so and the back and side plates have been dimensioned. Would Tyvek be overkill at this point? I'm mainly worried about the hand sanding from here on out. All appointments on both these guitars is coco- head plates, rosettes, fretboards and bridges.

Which brings me to the next question. Is it the oil in coco that acts as the vector for the irritant or is it the dust itself? Any precautions need to be taken with the fretboard? Maybe a wax or something to seal it? I'd hate for someone to be pissed off at me because the guitar I built them caused a huge rash on the guy's hand. I don't know why but all of the sudden today I got a little paranoid.

Just wear a dust mask and proceed. If you're that worried about it don't use cocobolo. I find the smell and the dust annoying and somewhat irritating to my respiratory system so I don't use it.



These users thanked the author jshelton for the post: fingerstyle1978 (Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:39 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:21 pm 
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jshelton wrote:
fingerstyle1978 wrote:
I know some people are more sensitive than others, so far I haven't had any bad response. I'm wearing a painters mask, long sleeves, jeans, mechanic gloves and leather shoes (I usually where shorts a t shirt and sneakers and gloves for certain operations when dealing with the soundboard because my hands sweat a lot). when I leave the shop I drop all my clothes right into the washing machine and start the cycle. I'm wondering if I should get the tyvek suit just to be safe. I've been handling it now making rosettes for the past week or so and the back and side plates have been dimensioned. Would Tyvek be overkill at this point? I'm mainly worried about the hand sanding from here on out. All appointments on both these guitars is coco- head plates, rosettes, fretboards and bridges.

Which brings me to the next question. Is it the oil in coco that acts as the vector for the irritant or is it the dust itself? Any precautions need to be taken with the fretboard? Maybe a wax or something to seal it? I'd hate for someone to be pissed off at me because the guitar I built them caused a huge rash on the guy's hand. I don't know why but all of the sudden today I got a little paranoid.

Just wear a dust mask and proceed. If you're that worried about it don't use cocobolo. I find the smell and the dust annoying and somewhat irritating to my respiratory system so I don't use it.


Unfortunately I find it to be the most beautiful species of wood on the planet other than primo, primo Brazilian. Plus it has similar properties to BRW at a fraction of the price. I actually like the smell, I just worry about the dust. Not using it isn't really an option for me. After all that set in my avatar is going to have to get used one of these days! [:Y:]

Maybe I'll rub it down with some Everclear a couple times to strip some of the oil out just to be safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:09 pm 
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fingerstyle1978 wrote:
Maybe I'll rub it down with some Everclear a couple times to strip some of the oil out just to be safe.


Nope, the solvent will draw more oil to the surface. Same reason I only scrape it before gluing. Use JSheltons advice and proceed with due care and enjoy working with while you can.

Steve



These users thanked the author StevenWheeler for the post: fingerstyle1978 (Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:36 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:45 pm 
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Coming from someone who has used it and developed the alergy, I would be more concerned about your lungs than anything else. No matter how careful you are, you will find that with dust, the alergy is trouble. Depending on your continued exposure, you may develop the rash, breathing problems, illness that just leaves you unusually tired, sore throat, cold, etc may develop sooner or later.
While coco may be real pretty, it comes with a rather high price tag...your deteriorating health. No matter how good your mask is, how well you have taped yourself up, you will come in contact with it. If you work in the basement with forced air, it will get into your house system. It will be all over your shop. Sure, you will vacuum, but you better have a dang good shop vac.
You might need to get over the bling and go with wood that has a better affect than the risk of ruining your health. Lots of coco figure is flasawn anyway.
Take what you need and throw the rest away. That you like the smell means it is in your lungs. This stuff in not reverseable...

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These users thanked the author Haans for the post: fingerstyle1978 (Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:59 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Another related question for anyone who may know: Is the oil neutralized by oxidation, or does it remain dangerous forever?


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:58 pm 
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I've used detergent to pull some of the oils out of the surface, but then you have to let it dry and lightly sand it. It is kind of a mixed bag - It helps keep the finished project from darkening quite as quickly but it's more work and if you sand it too much you're back to square one.
Learning to use a scraper and minimizing sanding might be your best bet.
At the rate the rosewoods are being banned you won't have too worry about it for too long.
In the box of scraps I bought recently there was a piece with a wonderful spicy smell which I have tentatively identified as tambootie. Milling the wood is known to cause diarrhea and blindness (which reminded me of an expression my father used to use).


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Coco trivia for the day:
One of the two major allergens in cocobolo is obtusaquinone which is a pigment. In addition to being allergenic and a sensitizer, it is highly toxic to fish, it is being studied in cancer research as a compound that kills cancer cells, and it has been studied for use as a fungicide.



These users thanked the author J De Rocher for the post (total 4): Joe Beaver (Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:19 am) • fingerstyle1978 (Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:39 pm) • Clay S. (Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:25 pm) • pat macaluso (Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:05 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Haans wrote:
Coming from someone who has used it and developed the alergy, I would be more concerned about your lungs than anything else. No matter how careful you are, you will find that with dust, the alergy is trouble. Depending on your continued exposure, you may develop the rash, breathing problems, illness that just leaves you unusually tired, sore throat, cold, etc may develop sooner or later.
While coco may be real pretty, it comes with a rather high price tag...your deteriorating health. No matter how good your mask is, how well you have taped yourself up, you will come in contact with it. If you work in the basement with forced air, it will get into your house system. It will be all over your shop. Sure, you will vacuum, but you better have a dang good shop vac.
You might need to get over the bling and go with wood that has a better affect than the risk of ruining your health. Lots of coco figure is flasawn anyway.
Take what you need and throw the rest away. That you like the smell means it is in your lungs. This stuff in not reverseable...


You make some good points. Luckily (most of the time unfortunately) My shop is in a garage with no HVAC. I am putting a split unit in shortly but for now its just hot out there. I do have a HEPA filter on my shopvac and decent dust collection which is also going to be upgraded to HEPA as well shortly. I'm in the habit of vacuuming the shop each day right after using it. That said I have plans on about 10 coco guitars, 2 of which are in progress now and I will keep about half of them for myself. After that I may re-evaluate. The really nice stuff is getting harder and harder to find anyway. I don't have much interest in building with straight grained full quartered coco. There's still plenty of other options that are it's visual equal without all the fuss. How many guitars would you say that you've built before developing the allergy? Also is it something that bothers you permanently now or just when you come into contact with the allergen itself as other allergies take affect with exposure? If it's permanent I'd say it's not only an allergen but a poison as well since allergic reactions come and go with exposure to allergens but permanent changes in health would be more indicative of poisoning.

The smell that I like though is not dust in the air as far as I can tell. It's the smell of the freshly milled wood after it comes out of the sander (and dust collection and is still a bit warm- or during bending. If that is toxic as well (gas off) then that is really something. I do appreciate the input and will keep it in mind.


Last edited by fingerstyle1978 on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:52 pm 
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DennisK wrote:
Another related question for anyone who may know: Is the oil neutralized by oxidation, or does it remain dangerous forever?


All I know is that it's so oily that it's dang near waterproof (another tick on the benefit side). Water actually beads up in coco which is obviously a testament to the amount of oil in the wood.


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:19 am 
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There are so many other woods to use for fretboards, why put a client's health at risk from exposure to the oil over time?
I've used coco on a few instruments, but never would leave the wood unfinished. Even the inside would get a sealer coat of shellac.

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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:50 am 
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I really couldn't say how many you might build before you develop an allergy. It's different for everyone. As far as smelling it from the sander with hepa filter, you are smelling either dust or fumes. Sand a piece of anything on your sander, dust collector running, with the lights out. Shine a flashlight and you will see the dust. Fumes are no better than dust. They attack the lungs too. I always wondered how "pickled" I got from particle board and formaldehyde...
I built 3-4 instruments and by the time I got to the last, I sold the rest.
The important thing to remember is that you may "develop" allergies at any time. Once you get it, you got it...

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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Many years ago, my physiology professor told us that it is the small particles of a substance being absorbed by the mucus membranes that create a sense of smell. So if you smell -- it, it is in your nose.
Some things act as sensitizers, and if you develop an allergy to one thing it may cause you to develop an allergy to other similar things. I knew one instrument builder who had to give up his basement workshop because his wife was allergic to some of the woods he was using.


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm 
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I've used a fair amount of coco through the years and really like it. I don't take any special precautions and have not had any problem (no skin or respiration problem).
I do put a dust mask on when cutting or sanding wood, most of the time

But some are more susceptible to wood, rosewood, oak or whatever. So you should suit up however you deem best.

.

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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Yup Clay, absolutely right. Pulmonologist's tell me that if it's in your nose, it's in your throat. That leads to chronic Bronchitis. If it's in your nose, it's in your lungs. Whether it's particulate or chemical fumes, if you smell it, your breathing it.
Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Each of us is different. The only way to see if coco works for you is try it. However, I'll say it one more time. Dust and fumes are additive. So are allergies. My wife cleaned houses for a living. She is now allergic to everything chemical. You don't get better, it doesn't go away.
If you are looking for a stamp of approval, sure, go ahead and use it...

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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Don Williams wrote:
There are so many other woods to use for fretboards, why put a client's health at risk from exposure to the oil over time?
I've used coco on a few instruments, but never would leave the wood unfinished. Even the inside would get a sealer coat of shellac.


That's a good point but he chose the parts. After thinking about it the past few days I think I'll just put a matte tru oil finish on the fretboard just like I do the rest of the neck other than the front and back headplates. It should hardly be noticeable. Fender finishes their maple fretboards I believe but I don't want that glossy look and this should take care of my concern.


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:41 am 
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Some years back I started getting allergic reactions to rosewoods, particularly madrose, after too much exposure to its dust. The symptoms were swollen eyelids, red eyes, itching etc. I was working full days ++ in the shop at the time, that had to stop. I now work fewer and shorter days, and I have continued to use both madrose, coco and some other rosewoods, but I have to be quite careful around it. A few tips that seem to work for me, so far:

-Always wear a proper respirator, a simple dust mask will not stop the finest dust, which is the most harmful. I did try various other options, such as the Trend full face powered respirator, but I found it too cumbersome to wear for extended periods.
-Limit sanding, cut or scrape wherever possible. Avoid producing dust as much as possible!
-I keep all my large processing machinery (band saws, table saw, jointer, thickness sander and edge sanders) in a separate room from my assembly room. Dust collector sits in another, adjacent small room. Catch as much dust as possible at the source, don’t let it back into the air.
-Limit the exposure to it; use mainly other woods. When you do produce dust, get rid of it, and don’t linger around, the small particles stay airborne for hours.
-Wash all work clothes and shower immediately after work sessions.

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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:28 am 
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Arnt Rian wrote:

-I keep all my large processing machinery (band saws, table saw, jointer, thickness sander and edge sanders) in a separate room from my assembly room. Dust collector sits in another, adjacent small room. Catch as much dust as possible at the source, don’t let it back into the air.

This is what we do. Problem is, some people don't have enough room for this option (this is the first shop we've had that is big enough). Our assembly area has air filtration and almost no power tools to limit dust. The finishing room is also separate and has exhaust fans.


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:28 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:30 am 
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I have some power tools mounted on wheels - a tablesaw, a small planer, bandsaw, and my drum sander. I wheel them outside if I am going to make a lot of dust - especially toxic dust.


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Clay S. wrote:
Many years ago, my physiology professor told us that it is the small particles of a substance being absorbed by the mucus membranes that create a sense of smell. So if you smell -- it, it is in your nose.
Some things act as sensitizers, and if you develop an allergy to one thing it may cause you to develop an allergy to other similar things. I knew one instrument builder who had to give up his basement workshop because his wife was allergic to some of the woods he was using.


It's a good thing thing I'm not allergic to farts because I haven't met a respirator that can match one of those!

Sorry- couldn't resist. I've been laughing at that joke all day out in the shop in my head and I just screwed up a rosette and needed another laugh. Better luck tomorrow!


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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:24 pm 
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I built one instrument with cocobolo and quickly became allergic to it. My hands, eyes, and throat broke out with red, itchy rashes. Once I finished that instrument I thoroughly cleaned my shop and sold all of the cocobolo I had left. I value my health.

Great advice from those above. I will add - if wearing gloves becomes too cumbersome, try a skin protection cream such as Rath's PR88.



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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:54 am 
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Good conversation. Like Haans and others, I developed an allergy to cocobolo after building a couple of guitars with the stuff.

Interesting observation, I have kept one of those guitars (it's ten years old now) and play it all of the time. Contact with the unfinished wood (fingerboard and bridge) does not cause me any problems (yet).

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 Post subject: Re: Coco concerns
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Strange. I'm like the most allergic person. Coco makes me sneeze. That's about it. I love the cinnamon smell. Hope u find a solution.



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