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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Mahogany
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First name: Benjamin
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After building an electric guitar I now feel brave enough to make a classical guitar. Yes I am aware that having your second guitar be an acoustic is a huge proposition but I feel ready to do this, and like my first build, I am doing this with the help of a luthier, and hey, we all got to start somewhere. The top will be an Engelmann spruce top with an east indian rosewood back and sides. The neck will be a one piece spanish cedar with a spanish heel, and the peghead veneer will be an east indian/maple/east indian sandwich. The fingerboard will be Gabon ebony slotted with a 650 mm scale length. The bridge will be east indian rosewood with an unbleached bone saddle and unbleached bone tieblock inlays. The binding, backstrip, and end wedge will be east indian rosewood with thin maple purfling. The kerfing will be spanish cedar, and so will the tailblock (unless mahogany is better structurally), as for the bracing, I am still trying to figure out which species I should use, the stock I am buying is specifically chosen for bracing and is quartersawn and billet split, so now I just need to choose which species will work best. The finish will be french polish, and the tuners will be Schaller nickel hauser style tuners with ebony buttons. Before I order all of this, I have a few questions for you all.
What sort of fretwire should I use? I saw on LMII's website that they have 12% nickel silver for nylon stringed instruments, should I be using that or the standard 18% nickel silver?
Should I include a truss rod on this guitar?
for the backstrip, I am using LMII's East Indian Rosewood backstrip with maple lams, have any of you used this before? What is the thickness of the maple lams? I ask because I would like to shoot for .020 maple purflings.
What is your method for routing a binding channel when you want to miter the purfling around the end wedge? Would this be too complex for a first build? I am using a simple purfling scheme though...
What brand of table saw blade would you recommend for making the cuts for the spanish heel?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:17 pm 
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My first was an electric and my second was an acoustic. Not as bad as you think, just jump right in :)

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These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Marn99 (Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:58 pm)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Yup me too. In fact exactly the same. I figured building an electric would be an easier introduction into the craft and then I went on to build a classical. A classical with cherry back, sides adn neck and a Sitka (Gawd forbid!) top. I still have it and it still sounds descent enough. I used to use a radial arm saw to cut the neck block kerfs. Today I use a bolt on neck even on classical unless otherwise desired. Another really cool permanent joint is the wedged neck block. I've never done it but you should check it out.

IMHO you do not need an adjustable truss rod. On a few of the classical guitars I built I used CF rods but I don't even think that is necessary. I think Cumpiano and Natleson's book has a pretty good detailed outline for doing mitered joints like that. But I also think you should keep it simple on the first go round. But who knows you might have impeccable skills. The problem is you want to avoid as much frustration as possible. You can use softer fretwire for classicals, I've used the LMI stuff.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Marn99 (Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:58 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:34 am 
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Koa
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Sounds like a great build! It will be great to watch the progress.

I would strongly encourage you to consider including the modern convenience of an adjustable trussrod and a bolt on neck - even on a classical. You see so many spanish style guitars requiring a neck reset or expensive planing to fix fretboard relief after a while... And you can't do it easily. The work is quite difficult and expensive... Many guitars just end up in the trash bin as a result.

The Spanish method for the unitized neck/heel began fairly late.... The whole rest of Europe traditionally had a separate neck that had some flavor of joint.... Dovetail, hardware, miter, etc.



These users thanked the author truckjohn for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:58 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:00 am 
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Mahogany
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First name: Benjamin
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Interesting that you say that about the Spanish heel joint. So I guess the ultimatum is Spanish heel with truss rod or carbon fiber rods or have a different joint. I am personally a fan of the dovetail, not that I don't think a bolt on will work, I just like the idea of a wood on wood glue joint better than metal bolts holding it together.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:15 am 
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Mahogany
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jfmckenna wrote:
Yup me too. In fact exactly the same. I figured building an electric would be an easier introduction into the craft and then I went on to build a classical. A classical with cherry back, sides adn neck and a Sitka (Gawd forbid!) top. I still have it and it still sounds descent enough. I used to use a radial arm saw to cut the neck block kerfs. Today I use a bolt on neck even on classical unless otherwise desired. Another really cool permanent joint is the wedged neck block. I've never done it but you should check it out.

IMHO you do not need an adjustable truss rod. On a few of the classical guitars I built I used CF rods but I don't even think that is necessary. I think Cumpiano and Natleson's book has a pretty good detailed outline for doing mitered joints like that. But I also think you should keep it simple on the first go round. But who knows you might have impeccable skills. The problem is you want to avoid as much frustration as possible. You can use softer fretwire for classicals, I've used the LMI stuff.

Would there be any reason not to use the harder stuff?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Koa
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There is a very high probability that your guitar will outlive you. Its worth considering that...

On the use of removable neck joints and various flavors of neck reinforcement.... I am not saying it's mandatory - many people believe strongly they are not.... I am pointing out that these modern conveniences provide a good solution for some fairly predictable "Because Guitar" sort of issues..

On which neck joint to use.... Up to you. Consider that the standard "assumption" on a classical is the spanish foot. That means unless it's obviously something different - a future repairman will assume the unitized one piece neck/heel by default.

On the choice of inlay... My recommendation is go minimal... Your biggest priority on your #1 is to finish it.. Both Perfection and Complexity are the enemy of done.

At the end of the day, though... You have to do what seems like fun to you.. It's a hobby, not a career... If this means going a different path - then by all means do it. Many fine and prominent luthiers have taken the position of "That's the next guy's problem to deal with..." So be it.

Marn99 wrote:
Interesting that you say that about the Spanish heel joint. So I guess the ultimatum is Spanish heel with truss rod or carbon fiber rods or have a different joint. I am personally a fan of the dovetail, not that I don't think a bolt on will work, I just like the idea of a wood on wood glue joint better than metal bolts holding it together.



These users thanked the author truckjohn for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:49 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Marn99 wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
Yup me too. In fact exactly the same. I figured building an electric would be an easier introduction into the craft and then I went on to build a classical. A classical with cherry back, sides adn neck and a Sitka (Gawd forbid!) top. I still have it and it still sounds descent enough. I used to use a radial arm saw to cut the neck block kerfs. Today I use a bolt on neck even on classical unless otherwise desired. Another really cool permanent joint is the wedged neck block. I've never done it but you should check it out.

IMHO you do not need an adjustable truss rod. On a few of the classical guitars I built I used CF rods but I don't even think that is necessary. I think Cumpiano and Natleson's book has a pretty good detailed outline for doing mitered joints like that. But I also think you should keep it simple on the first go round. But who knows you might have impeccable skills. The problem is you want to avoid as much frustration as possible. You can use softer fretwire for classicals, I've used the LMI stuff.

Would there be any reason not to use the harder stuff?


In my opinion, no. I've used both and tend to use the regular stuff now. I think the idea behind it is that it would be easier on strings but I'd rather have strings wear out rather than frets. Some will make claims about tone but I don't think it would be noticeable.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:49 pm)
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Mahogany
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First name: Benjamin
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So I have decided to do the Spanish heel, for the sake of simplicity and originality. I understand that it will be harder to repair when the neck needs servicing, reset, etc. but I am simply not set up to make dovetail joints at the moment. As for the bracing, I am still completely torn on what to do. I noticed that the O'Brien classical kit from LMII uses Engelmann spruce for the top bracing and western red cedar for the back. Is this a good choice for bracing species? What was traditionally used for top and back bracing on the old Torres and Hausers? I know that the stiffness and straightness of grain is the most important part of bracing, but what species should I be looking at to give me the best chances of success?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:08 pm 
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I use lutz, but only because it was available in large split billets when I bought it years ago, and I was tired of losing half the yield from the little sawn billets that most luthier suppliers sell due to the usually high runout. You could ask the new owners of High Mountain Tonewood if they'll sell you some in that form. Otherwise I'd go with split sitka from Alaska Specialty Woods. Any spruce will do just fine. They all have the desired properties of high stiffness to weight ratio, decent strength (to resist cold-creep), and good split resistance. It's all in how you shape them.

For fretwire, I use evo gold for everything. Super durable, easy to work, and only costs a few dollars more. Just make sure you buy either straight or coiled depending on whether you plan to radius the fingerboard or not.

And I love Spanish heels (especially for cutaways), but only if it's practical to do a heel slip reset in the future. No overly elaborate purfling schemes or unrepairable finish. Lately I've given up back binding entirely, and together with not-overly-perfect shellac finish, it should be quite easy to reset them when the time comes.


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These users thanked the author DennisK for the post: Marn99 (Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:40 am)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:41 am 
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I think I am going to do lutz or Engelmann for the top bracing. Will spanish cedar Kerfing work for a classical guitar? what about the end block? I still haven't decided on the back bracing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:47 am 
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Benjamin, you are getting a lot of good advice, let me just add my experience. My first home built guitar was a dovetail jointed small body steel string kit (similar to StewMac's but from a different source). I was happy with the experience, would change a few things but that guitar is still my daily player after almost 12 years.

My second guitar was a classical built from the iconic '37 Hauser plans and guided by Cumpiano and Natelson (if you don't have it, buy it before you do anything else). I couldn't totally get my head around building on a workboard so I did kind of a combination with an outside mold. There might be better ways, that worked for me. The neck was a standard Spanish heel - that has worked for several centuries, why should I question it. The Spanish cedar neck does not have a truss rod - I planed the relief into the neck and it has been totally stable for ten years.

Image

A lot of your questions really don't matter as to the final outcome of your guitar - any kind of kerfing will work, any kind of back strap (on none) will work, almost any good medium fretwire will be fine. Top bracing should be spruce - since you probably don't know how to evaluate stiffness I would say that any species can be used. I used rosewood for the back strap and binding - pure aesthetic. I did finish in lacquer because I was familiar with it, if I ever do another classical I will French polish it for traditional reasons (I have used lacquer on everything I've built).

Image

Here are my first two guitars, the Hauser clone and the 000 steel string

Image


Last edited by Freeman on Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Marn99 (Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:52 pm)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:02 pm 
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You asked about doing the binding channels - for the first couple of guitars I simply taped some small 5 degree wedges to the bases of my small router to get the correct angle for the back (or at least close to correct) and used the StewMac stepped bits. The top doesn't need any angle. It works if you are very careful about controlling your router and the direction of cut. Since then I have bought the floating gizmo that StewMac sells to hold the router because I'm building guitars with all sorts of weird contours but for a basically "flat topped" guitar either tilt your router base or shim it. You can do the butt graft with a razor saw and chisel

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Image



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Marn99 (Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:52 pm)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:44 pm 
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Don't knock yourself out trying to do the ultimate in every detail, the classical is actually quite forgiving. When you have built many and you are making a career of guitar making and you need to get the absolute most out of every detail in your construction, then worry about it.

First, the Courtnall book "Making Master Guitars" is the best resource in book form for you. I've read through all of them, they'll all work, but the Courtnall is the most comprehensive and specific to the classical guitar.

Use Spruce for all of your bracing, even the linings. Don't worry about which species as long as you choose stiff and light weight and prepare it properly. You can even find good bracing stock in lumberyard Spruce if you choose carefully. At this point don't even worry about the BEST bracing scheme as they will all work. I would suggest that you start with the classic Torres pattern. This results in a fine guitar. If another approach might be better for you in the future, and you only ever make the one Torres guitar, then you will have this as a reference by which to compare and describe every other effort, and that really is worth something.

The Spanish Heel is good and offers many advantages. It is also a very efficient way of building.

Don't fuss about truss rods and CF reinforcement at this point.

There are far more important issues to worry about in building a classical guitar.

First and foremost is to get your geometry for the neck angle and dome correct. This is set in your solara. The easiest way that I have found to get in the right zone for fine tuning your set up is to consider that the degree of dome and forward neck angle should add up to 5mm. Ie 3mm dome plus 2mm neck angle, or any variation of that.

Secondly, good construction.

Third playability!

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These users thanked the author douglas ingram for the post: Marn99 (Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:52 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:23 am 
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Benjamin, you've got a couple of threads going asking different questions about your proposed build - let me just make some random suggestions. Take them for what they are worth - they are things I've learned after building 22 different instruments

1) Build something you want to build. If you want a classical guitar then that what you should do.

2) Pick an established design, get the plans and carefully follow them. There are lots of options and lots of good plans available at the GAL, LMII and other sources. Most of these designs have a good track record - if you build one of them you stand a reasonable chance of having a decent guitar. Don't think you are smarter and start modifying them....

3) Buy good materials but don't be obsessive about them. Any one of the OLF sponsors can and will supply you with good quality wood - call them and talk about what you want. In most cases you will be getting better wood than most commercial thousand dollar guitars. Frankly master grade wood is probably going to be wasted on your first build - please do take that personally, its just a fact. Be willing to accept some minor flaws in ebony and other wood.

4) There are some operations that are hard for a first time builder to do - thicknessing the plates and mitering the fretboard are two of them. I take my tops and sides to a local cabinet shop who can thickness sand them to my specifications - consider having your supplier do that for you. I build a lot of different scale guitars and haven't bothered to set up a fret mitering system for all of them - I just buy the boards pre slotted.

5) Think about the tools that you need and buy good ones. I can promise that for your first build you will be making a fairly large investment in tools. With each build I think about what would have made the last one easier or better and add a major tool to my shop. There are only a few power tools that you really need - for me it would be a band saw, belt sander, drill press, and a couple of good routers.

6) There are a couple of things that will make or break your guitar - geometry is the main one. Get your neck angle, top dome, bridge location absolutely perfect. Be fastidious about your fretwork. Make the setup absolutely perfect and you'll have a playable guitar.

7) You can have lots of fun and let your artistic side be creative with all the little trim details - rosette, binding, headstock shape, use of different woods and colors. Most of these won't affect the sound of the guitar and some of them can be kind of tricky to execute.

8) Finish is one of the hardest things for a first time home builder to get right. You will have a very hard time even approaching a commercial finish and honestly when I look at many home made guitars I think the finish is pretty poor. Be realistic with your expectations here and choose a system that you are comfortable with. I have sprayed nitrocellulose lacquer on every one of my guitars - its forgiving and I get good results with it. If I was ever going to do another classical I would French polish it just because that's what is expected, but my expectations for FP would be less than for nitro because of my lack of experience with it.

Allocate lots of time for the finishing process - I figure at least six weeks or more. Save cutoffs of your top and back to experiment on. Scrape as much as possible. Get every bit of glue off of white wood before you start finishing.

9) Read every blog and build thread you can, particularly novice builders, and look at where they make mistakes. You'll make mistakes too, recovery is an important part of building.

10) I'll add a bunch of random thoughts. Don't build a guitar to save money - you can buy a far better PacRim import for far less than you'll spend on tools and wood. Build a guitar that fits an available case (custom cases are expensive, ask how I know). Don't read a lot of stuff about voicing and tap tuning and then think you can do it - its all valid but it takes years to learn. Don't fail to have fun.



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: Marn99 (Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:53 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:28 pm 
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To tack on to Freeman's good post. . . I see you asking several questions about wood species for this or that or which is better. Don't expect wood species to have any kind of magical impact on you first several guitars. Use good quality timber (you don't need any master grade wood) and make a few guitars. You have won't be able to notice any difference between spruce varieties or even back and side woods. At this point anything you would observe would likely be based on a priori assumptions based on what other people claim.

Get some wood, follow a good plane and have fun. You'll be planning the next one as soon as you sting up the first!

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These users thanked the author Bryan Bear for the post: Marn99 (Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:53 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:49 pm 
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As a very new builder myself (only 4 down) I can say don’t worry about every detail right now .
Hey bless you’re a pro woodworker by trade your first task will be learning to cut to exact specifications and joint wood. Seems simple, but it is not haha


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These users thanked the author SnowManSnow for the post: Marn99 (Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:53 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Freeman’s post was excellent and deserves to be pinned. I would even be more pragmatic about a first (or third, or even tenth) build. Guitars are inherently beautiful things. They don’t need acres of shell, crazy asymmetrical shapes or giant ornate peg heads to be special. Too often I have seen builds abandoned or just turned sour after someone has put 100 hours in laying ornate shell on a guitar that they later can’t fit the neck properly, or has a first time effort finish on it, or has an awkwardly carved neck, or has a bridge glued on slightly off, or....


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Benjamin
Sounds like the instrument you are planning should be a nice one. On questions like bracewood and fret material, you probably should stay with what you plans call for, (you do have plans?). Regarding a table saw, it really comes down to what your budget is and how much space you have in your work area.

My only other advice is this.

I'm sure you discovered on the electric build that mistakes will be made. The true measure of progress is how well you overcome those mistakes. When something goes wrong my first thought is 'what is the easiest way to fix this'? In the back of my mind, hiding in the shadows, I know what i really should do. It will be more work and take longer but it will be right when I finish. Always chose the right way. You won't regret it

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Joe Beaver wrote:
I'm sure you discovered on the electric build that mistakes will be made. The true measure of progress is how well you overcome those mistakes. When something goes wrong my first thought is 'what is the easiest way to fix this'? In the back of my mind, hiding in the shadows, I know what i really should do. It will be more work and take longer but it will be right when I finish. Always chose the right way. You won't regret it

+1 to that. Treat every mistake as an opportunity to improve your repair skills.


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