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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:09 am 
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Mahogany
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fingerstyle1978 wrote:
Also is this your first build?

I am working on my first acoustic right now, but I will be building this in the future, I expect 8 to 10+ years. I simply wanted to collect the materials now because high value tonewoods and materials are getting rarer and rarer.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:18 am 
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Mahogany
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Bryan Bear wrote:
I understand the wisdom in getting materials now for a far off project since you expect the prices to rise in the next 10 years. I just wanted to add some food for thought. Before I made my first guitar, I had a very specific idea of what I wanted my "dream guitar" to be once I built up the chops to pull it off. The more exposure I get to hand/custom made instruments the more my tastes evolve. If I sat down to lay out my "dream guitar" today, it would be nothing like what I thought I wanted. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that I no longer have an ideal guitar in my head; there are just too many flavors to enjoy. But I don't see myself ever making the guitar I thought I wanted back then.

I completely understand where you are coming from here, but where is the harm in having such high quality pieces of wood in my tonewood stock? I could build something else with them if my dream guitar changes. [:Y:]


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:48 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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"I simply wanted to collect the materials now because high value tonewoods and materials are getting rarer and rarer."

Good thinking! Soon you won't be able to find some of these woods at any price.
I bought some exotic wood "scraps" recently. When I was loading them in the truck I was wondering if I really should have paid $20 for three large boxes of small pieces of dusty dirty wood someone else had been hoarding for years and was finally dumping. After rooting through it at home and cleaning it up some on the jointer, I had a few board feet of cocobolo, tulipwood, and ebony suitable for guitar bridges and tenor guitar and ukulele fingerboards, as well as some satinwood , bubinga, padauk, and a couple of woods I didn't recognize. Not the barn full of BRW we would all like to find, but it was fun.



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post (total 3): matt hampton (Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:08 pm) • Bryan Bear (Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:51 pm) • Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:52 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:38 am 
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Marn99 wrote:
fingerstyle1978 wrote:
Also is this your first build?

I am working on my first acoustic right now, but I will be building this in the future, I expect 8 to 10+ years. I simply wanted to collect the materials now because high value tonewoods and materials are getting rarer and rarer.
No harm in that!



These users thanked the author pat macaluso for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:52 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:30 am 
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pat macaluso wrote:
kencierp wrote:
Bryan Bear wrote:
I understand the wisdom in getting materials now for a far off project since you expect the prices to rise in the next 10 years. I just wanted to add some food for thought. Before I made my first guitar, I had a very specific idea of what I wanted my "dream guitar" to be once I built up the chops to pull it off. The more exposure I get to hand/custom made instruments the more my tastes evolve. If I sat down to lay out my "dream guitar" today, it would be nothing like what I thought I wanted. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that I no longer have an ideal guitar in my head; there are just too many flavors to enjoy. But I don't see myself ever making the guitar I thought I wanted back then.


Ditto
Thrice


Quatro.

For me though only the shape has changed. Where I used to like the idea of a dread, I no longer like that shape anymore. In fact I don't even own a Dread mold anymore. More of an OM/SJ guy these days. I like Jumbos too but rare woods in those large sizes are even more difficult to find and more expensive when you can find them. Other than that the only other thing that would probably change is that I'd want dual arm bevels installed on the front and back. Other than that all wood choices and appointments would be roughly the same. Still multi-scale 27.5" to 25.7" with a little abalone inlay. I've been playing a lot longer than I've been building though so I've always had a pretty good idea of what I wanted in mind.

I was asking more because I was hoping that he wasn't going to try to build this thing right of the bat as a first time builder. Boise do Rose is nearly impossible to find these days and I'd hate to see it go through the growing pains of a first build (based on my first 3 build experiences lol). Seems he's got a decent plan though to build it several years down the line, which is cool. I've done the same by acquiring BRW, the rare spidery Coco, Madagascar RW, Brazilian Kingwood, Mad Rose and a bunch of high end sets of Adi and Euro Spruce. I'm finally starting to build with them now (8 years later).



These users thanked the author fingerstyle1978 for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:43 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:48 am 
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Mahogany
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By the way on the topic of the back and sides, the person I am buying it from says it is flatsawn, however, it is old, stable, wonderfully figured, and has an insane tap tone. Should it being flat sawn concern me at all in terms of stability and tone? I do have a flatsawn bois de rose live edge slab (too thin and narrow for a guitar, it is going to be made into fingerboards and headplate veneers) that is also really stable, wonderfully colored, and has hands down the best tap tone of my entire wood collection, surpassing even my pieces of brazilian and african blackwood, so I am genuinely wondering if it doesn't matter in this species.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Marn99 wrote:
By the way on the topic of the back and sides, the person I am buying it from says it is flatsawn, however, it is old, stable, wonderfully figured, and has an insane tap tone. Should it being flat sawn concern me at all in terms of stability and tone? I do have a flatsawn bois de rose live edge slab (too thin and narrow for a guitar, it is going to be made into fingerboards and headplate veneers) that is also really stable, wonderfully colored, and has hands down the best tap tone of my entire wood collection, surpassing even my pieces of brazilian and african blackwood, so I am genuinely wondering if it doesn't matter in this species.
Every wood is more unstable flat sawn. I don't know if anyone has data on that particular species or not though. Even suppliers now are selling completely Flatsawn Woods and marketing them as (highly figured lol) and many beautiful guitars are being made from them. Who knows what those woods will do years down the road from now, however I wouldn't be concerned if the instrument was taken care of. Meaning kept in a humidity controlled environment.

Tone wise, no difference.



These users thanked the author pat macaluso for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:38 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Mahogany
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pat macaluso wrote:
Marn99 wrote:
By the way on the topic of the back and sides, the person I am buying it from says it is flatsawn, however, it is old, stable, wonderfully figured, and has an insane tap tone. Should it being flat sawn concern me at all in terms of stability and tone? I do have a flatsawn bois de rose live edge slab (too thin and narrow for a guitar, it is going to be made into fingerboards and headplate veneers) that is also really stable, wonderfully colored, and has hands down the best tap tone of my entire wood collection, surpassing even my pieces of brazilian and african blackwood, so I am genuinely wondering if it doesn't matter in this species.
Every wood is more unstable flat sawn. I don't know if anyone has data on that particular species or not though. Even suppliers now are selling completely Flatsawn Woods and marketing them as (highly figured lol) and many beautiful guitars are being made from them. Who knows what those woods will do years down the road from now, however I wouldn't be concerned if the instrument was taken care of. Meaning kept in a humidity controlled environment.

Tone wise, no difference.

good to know that it should be ok, this particular piece of Bois de Rose is blood red with black veins very reminiscent of brazilian.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:06 pm 
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I know its done but for me thumbs down flat sawn guitar sets --- especially if there is any curl. Simply not worth the possible build and future humidity problems --- been there done it $.02

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These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:16 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Mahogany
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kencierp wrote:
I know its done but for me thumbs down flat sawn guitar sets --- especially if there is any curl. Simply not worth the possible build and future humidity problems --- been there done it $.02

to each their own then [:Y:] Allow me to clarify, when I said figuring I was referring to the black veins in the wood, the wood itself is straight grained. Also, this set was cut from near the center of the log, so the outside and inside edges are quartersawn, and it is much more stable than brazilian. And again, I can't argue with a piece of wood that rings like a church bell.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I have some highly figured mahogany that is flat sawn and I plan on using it for guitars. But that's mahogany which is known to be very stable. Anything else I'd probably take a pass on as well.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Marn99 (Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:25 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Mahogany
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jfmckenna wrote:
I have some highly figured mahogany that is flat sawn and I plan on using it for guitars. But that's mahogany which is known to be very stable. Anything else I'd probably take a pass on as well.

I dunno, I really love this rosewood and don't want to pass on it..... As far as I know it is one of the only Jumbo sized sets in the states. another thing to consider is that this tree rarely grows past a foot in diameter, at most two according to the wood database. Franck Cherubin has used flatsawn back and sides in the past.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Koa
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Build it.



These users thanked the author Glen H for the post: Marn99 (Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:31 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Well. Just make sure to keep it in the correct humidity / not too dry. Also keep your receipt. I’m guessing you could sell it on a forum if it actually does get rare.
I’m not sure if he stocking the wood for 10 years down the road, but that’s just me.
Your ideas will DRASTICALLY change if you’ve just started. Mine have and I’m only a year in myself


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These users thanked the author SnowManSnow for the post: Marn99 (Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:31 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:56 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Could care less about the ivory, if you got it, the animal is dead. But, (knowing ivoroid does not expand like wood over time), one would expect Mammoth ivory to be rather brittle, comparatively. Might be something to consider if you expect the instrument to outlive you.
Concerning taste change over time. My first guitar (the second time around) was an 0-45 BRW. What I like the most is my ladder braced grade B red spruce and figured white oak Parlor.

Good luck on your quest...

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These users thanked the author Haans for the post: Marn99 (Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:31 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:22 am 
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Koa
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Just some reality -- well most of us have had exceptional (to our ear!) tap sounding sets pass through our hands, the idea that one is the best or the only one we'll ever touch is not the case. I've heard hundreds that struck me as fine --- and I am very confident that despite doomsday talk this will be the case going forward ---- and this is a renewable resource -- patience! (Allied now has some exceptional EIR once thought not to be possible) And what's to say the set won't get screwed up or sound better after processing, bracing, is it ideal for the body shape chosen etc.? Of course appearance is a little different issue.

And an observation about "good sounding J45's" talking about them at Elderly's, seems the techs really like the sound produced by the crappy constructed Mahogany models with the straight bracing that seems to be roughly glued in place --- go figure.

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These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Marn99 (Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:40 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:40 am 
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Mahogany
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Haans wrote:
Could care less about the ivory, if you got it, the animal is dead. But, (knowing ivoroid does not expand like wood over time), one would expect Mammoth ivory to be rather brittle, comparatively. Might be something to consider if you expect the instrument to outlive you.
Concerning taste change over time. My first guitar (the second time around) was an 0-45 BRW. What I like the most is my ladder braced grade B red spruce and figured white oak Parlor.

Good luck on your quest...

ivory is only brittle if you try to bend it like plastic binding :lol: . There are many ways to bend ivories, one method used in the 19th century and before says that it needs to be soaked in hot water and either phosphoric acid or, if I remember correctly, sodium carbonate (don't quote me on that). It then needs to be re hardened with something called "dry decrepitated salt". This is possibly how martin bent the ivory binding their guitars back in the 19th century. That being said, frank ford says he has bent it on a bending pipe as well. Ivory is very strong, and when cut correctly in relation to the growth rings on the tusk, is usually quite stable.


Last edited by Marn99 on Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:56 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:52 am 
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Mahogany
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Another thing to remember is that Bois De Rose, or rather the many Dalbergia species on madagascar that yield Bois De Rose, rarely grow past 1 foot. A maximum trunk diameter of 2 feet has been recorded, but the trees of that size were certainly cut down a century ago during the French colonial period. On the topic of deforestation, this back and sides set has pre-ban provenance, something that is more important to me than quartersawn vs flatsawn.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:53 am 
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I had no idea Ivory could be bent! Cool, that would be quite The Conversation Piece.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:36 am 
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Marn99 wrote:
Haans wrote:
Could care less about the ivory, if you got it, the animal is dead. But, (knowing ivoroid does not expand like wood over time), one would expect Mammoth ivory to be rather brittle, comparatively. Might be something to consider if you expect the instrument to outlive you.
Concerning taste change over time. My first guitar (the second time around) was an 0-45 BRW. What I like the most is my ladder braced grade B red spruce and figured white oak Parlor.

Good luck on your quest...

ivory is only brittle if you try to bend it like plastic binding :lol: . There are many ways to bend ivories, one method used in the 19th century and before says that it needs to be soaked in hot water and either phosphoric acid or, if I remember correctly, sodium carbonate (don't quote me on that). It then needs to be re hardened with something called "dry decrepitated salt". This is possibly how martin bent the ivory binding their guitars back in the 19th century. That being said, frank ford says he has bent it on a bending pipe as well. Ivory is very strong, and when cut correctly in relation to the growth rings on the tusk, is usually quite stable.


(Shakes head)
Have fun with your dreams...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:17 pm 
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I feel you on the BDR. I recently acquired my first specimens and they are about the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Density and tap seems just like most Brazilian I've handled. I never want them to leave my shop. I don't know how I'm ever going to make any money........Doh!

So, if you can grab some, I would snap it up!
Image


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:21 pm 
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"Who knows what those woods will do years down the road from now,"

I do! I do! - they will crack. Down the road bad things are bound to happen. When they crack, they can be repaired, just as a lot of other old guitars have been.
As to ivory - the mammoth ivory I have, though old and wonderfully discolored, is not brittle. I have used prosphoric acid (naval jelly) to soften it and make it bendable. Ivory was used for binding and rosettes on the more expensive instruments in the 1800's and wood bindings on the cheaper ones (one reason guitar makers started using white plastic on their upscale stock and black plastic on the cheaper stuff)
I have built guitars with back and sides that had a terrible tap tone and the finished instrument sounded great. I don't worry too much about the tap tone of the back and sides.
Hey Pat,
I'm building a little size one out of some wood that looks like yours. It wasn't quite wide enough so I added a center strip and will use a little heavier binding/purfling scheme to "grow" the back.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Clay S. wrote:
I'm building a little size one out of some wood that looks like yours. It wasn't quite wide enough so I added a center strip and will use a little heavier binding/purfling scheme to "grow" the back.
There you go! Be sure and post some pics.

I love pushing the limit. You need laser accuracy. I have some beautiful 4" sides that I'm going to try to make a 4 3/8 - 4 1/2 inch guitar. Very carefully!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Hmm. I have some Red Spruce..? None from the Adirondacks though!



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hi Pat,
Here is a picture of the size 1 I'm working on. For some reason the camera is not catching the colors right and is making things too yellow. I'm still getting used to this new software.


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