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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:10 pm 
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I am currently doing a fret level on a semi-hollow electric I built back in 1993... And my client reminded me he wanted the guitar tuned to A-432 instead of the usual A-440..... He gave me his usual space-jazz explanation about the human brain resonating better with the electromagnetic structure of the universe nonsense at A-432.... I said OK, but was skeptical. Then I happened to mention it to Mike Metz - my electronics service partner, and said he does it for clients who request that tuning on some synths. Says it's backed up by science.

Has anyone else run across this?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:37 pm 
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It looks more of a new agey thing to me.

https://ask.audio/articles/music-theory-432-hz-tuning-separating-fact-from-fiction


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Yep, it's a thing. Seems more superstitious than scientific to me, but placebo effect is real. Music is such an emotional thing to begin with, if the lower tuning makes people more relaxed, then it's good.

Also, some guitars will sound better in A432 and others in A440, due to the particular resonant frequencies. The Gore/Gilet approach is to carefully tune the air/top/back frequencies to fall half way between A440 scale tones, which means their guitars probably sound very wolfy in A432. And if a guitar has wolf notes in A440, then switching to A432 may fix it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Total BS and yes we've run across it more than once. Snake oil fueled by the Internet and ignorance.

Perhaps the client would prefer the brown.... note.... in the proximity of their open case....

On a serious note any client who asked me for A432 I would ask them if they were kidding. If not I would make the case that it's BS. If they persist they get shown the door. We don't peddle BS and snake oil at our business.



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 2): ernie (Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:21 am) • Clinchriver (Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:05 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:55 pm 
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DennisK wrote:
Yep, it's a thing. Seems more superstitious than scientific to me, but placebo effect is real. Music is such an emotional thing to begin with, if the lower tuning makes people more relaxed, then it's good.

Also, some guitars will sound better in A432 and others in A440, due to the particular resonant frequencies. The Gore/Gilet approach is to carefully tune the air/top/back frequencies to fall half way between A440 scale tones, which means their guitars probably sound very wolfy in A432. And if a guitar has wolf notes in A440, then switching to A432 may fix it.


That's just another way of saying that every instrument may have different dominant resonant frequencies. Nothing new and that much I agree with.

By the way it's also known, A432 as the "God note...." Who ever came up with that has a WAY better medical pot dispensary than I do......

One more thing. If a client seeks something that cannot have an agreed upon beginning, end and definition of success danger Will Robinson because you are in subjective, snake oil land. If you guarantee your work and we most certainly do any criteria that supports the concept of seeing God when success is reached may not be prudent for your balance sheet....


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:17 pm 
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I don't know the claims or how and what would have been tested so I don't really have a dog in this fight. I will say that lots of things are backed by "science" and some things are backed by science. The first step in determining which you are dealing with is to see if there is any peer-reviewed literature. Usually that is as far as you need to go to separate the "science" from the science.

I think Dennis has a good take. There may be cases that benefit from it but not for the more metaphysical reasons that are claimed. Just because something sounds outlandish and can't be or hasn't been proven false doesn't make it false. . . but that certainly doesn't make it true either.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:24 pm 
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OK, I just wondered. I remember something about how the pitch of string instruments has risen since the Middle Ages, but it was attributed to early instruments not being able to handle higher pitched string tensions. I also am familiar with religious music from the Middle Ages sticking to octaves and fifths, and that fourths were considered to be absolutely Satanic! I felt this latest revelation was something old becoming new again. So it's pseudo-science?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Chris Pile wrote:
OK, I just wondered. I remember something about how the pitch of string instruments has risen since the Middle Ages, but it was attributed to early instruments not being able to handle higher pitched string tensions. I also am familiar with religious music from the Middle Ages sticking to octaves and fifths, and that fourths were considered to be absolutely Satanic! I felt this latest revelation was something old becoming new again. So it's pseudo-science?


I'm certainly not meaning to say it is pseudo-science because I have done zero research. But if I had to guess. . .

I do know the standard for A has changed over time and eventually 440 became the agreed upon standard. Since we are talking about divisions of a second, and a second is a completely man-made unit of measure I am dubious.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:01 pm 
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So getting back to your client's request. Can you actually build an instrument with A432 in mind? I understand tap tones and even attached a tuner to my tops to see how the frequency changes as I carved. But was I targeting a frequency? Heck no! For me, too many other variables in the mix, attaching to the back and sides, finish, strings, etc. So can't you just build the guitar and tune it using a tuner that can be set for A432? Everything is just relative from that starting point. Or am I totally missing something?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Take your pick - https://macprovid.vo.llnwd.net/o43/hub/media/1156/11684/historictunings.jpg

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Roger Siminoff has written extensively about Lloyd Loar and his work at Gibson during the 1920's. Apparently A was 431 at that time and Siminoff claims that has a lot to do with the sound of Loar's instruments, particularly when they are tuned to today's standard of 440. Here is a quote from Siminoff's website

"... To accomplish this, soundboards, backboards, tone bars, f-holes, and air chamber sizes were adjusted so that each element was tuned to a specific note. And, in Loar’s day, these notes were part of concert pitch C=256 (where A=431). With the entire instrument assembled, and strings tuned to the concert pitch of that time, the parts of the instrument responded harmonically rather than discordantly to the strings’ energy. The tuning suppressed any unwanted “beats” or overtones thus bringing forth the best dynamics and tonal qualities of the instrument. Further, the use of C=256 accidentally causes the bodies of these instruments to be tuned ¼ tone off today’s concert pitch; an attribute that contributes to the incredible richness of these instruments. This was an attribute that Loar could not have foreseen since concert pitch A=440 was not adopted until 30 years after Loar’s death. It was a gift he gave without knowing...."

http://siminoff.net/cms/wp-content/uplo ... r-9-06.pdf


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:19 pm 
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If Roger says so, it's so.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
Total BS and yes we've run across it more than once. Snake oil fueled by the Internet and ignorance.

Perhaps the client would prefer the brown.... note.... in the proximity of their open case....

On a serious note any client who asked me for A432 I would ask them if they were kidding. If not I would make the case that it's BS. If they persist they get shown the door. We don't peddle BS and snake oil at our business.


oh c'mon Hesh, what about the customer is always right?

seriously...it's just a different frequency, so just tune it up, intonate it to that, and call it a day...

I mean, what would you say if I walked in and asked you to set up one of my acoustics to play in an alternate tuning? again, it's just a different set of frequencies...or are you all using pre-made saddles these days? beehive laughing6-hehe



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:08 pm 
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One can only imagine what wonders could be had by setting a Tonerite to operate at 432 Hz. Think about how the music played from a guitar treated this way would center your heart chakra and allow your guitar to resonate with the universe, the Great Pyramid, and healing crystals of all kinds!



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Chris Pile wrote:
.... He gave me his usual space-jazz explanation about the human brain resonating better with the electromagnetic structure of the universe nonsense at A-432....



OMG. more likely he meant 420 ;)

This is clearly the next logical next step in the "individual economy". On your "Iphone, go to "my instruments" then, under "preferences" select from your "personal frequency list"

Think of the money to be made selling audiophiles turntables that run at 32.6 RPM!

laughing6-hehe [uncle]



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Mike_P wrote:
Hesh wrote:
Total BS and yes we've run across it more than once. Snake oil fueled by the Internet and ignorance.

Perhaps the client would prefer the brown.... note.... in the proximity of their open case....

On a serious note any client who asked me for A432 I would ask them if they were kidding. If not I would make the case that it's BS. If they persist they get shown the door. We don't peddle BS and snake oil at our business.


oh c'mon Hesh, what about the customer is always right?

seriously...it's just a different frequency, so just tune it up, intonate it to that, and call it a day...

I mean, what would you say if I walked in and asked you to set up one of my acoustics to play in an alternate tuning? again, it's just a different set of frequencies...or are you all using pre-made saddles these days? beehive laughing6-hehe


No you're right Mike, no argument from me. I frequently if not daily set-up client stuff for alternate tuning and have no objection at all beyond disclaiming in advance and being sure the client knows that some alternate tunings will rattle such as low C for shredders.

It is just another turning standard and I do that all day long, that will be $*** please, next.

However.... when someone equates mystical or magic qualities to A332 AND defines "success" as a subjective criteria I won't work for them. One of the ways that Dave and I have been as successful as we are is that we do what it takes to spot the wankers during triage and may refuse them service......

We never try to be all things to all folks. Again our value prop has to be well defined going in and criteria such as being able to see God after Hesh does a fret dress is best left for the medical pot dispensaries three buildings down from us or the hooker on the corner two blocks over at the bus station.....

But you are right if it's just another alternate tuning no prob.



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:32 pm 
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J De Rocher wrote:
One can only imagine what wonders could be had by setting a Tonerite to operate at 432 Hz. Think about how the music played from a guitar treated this way would center your heart chakra and allow your guitar to resonate with the universe, the Great Pyramid, and healing crystals of all kinds!


That's the spirit! ;)



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:33 pm 
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david farmer wrote:
Chris Pile wrote:
.... He gave me his usual space-jazz explanation about the human brain resonating better with the electromagnetic structure of the universe nonsense at A-432....



OMG. more likely he meant 420 ;)

This is clearly the next logical next step in the "individual economy". On your "Iphone, go to "my instruments" then, under "preferences" select from your "personal frequency list"

Think of the money to be made selling audiophiles turntables that run at 32.6 RPM!

laughing6-hehe [uncle]


Just bought a new after-market belt for my Rega III. It's a freakin..... $65 rubber band.... what a scam....;). Neil Young is right though, records sound way better....


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:52 am 
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Well. gaah - where's The Padma when you need him?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:15 am 
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Colin North wrote:
Well. gaah - where's The Padma when you need him?


Yeah Padma knew what a Loofier is! Hope his bench doggie is doing great too, I love dogs!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:18 am 
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Watching too much Zohar Stargrate on Utoob?
Seriously, I set my own tuner to A-428 a few years ago because I play Piedmont style and always felt that blues sounded better if it was a little flat and slightly out of tune with older strings. That's old blues.
Ever pick up an acoustic instrument after several days and discover how easy it plays because it's a little flat? My old arms are so arthritic that I have to wear a full arm sleeve to play and I can appreciate a little break...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:45 am 
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Many old instruments used A432 -435 as a standard pitch. It is sometimes cast into the iron plate of pianos.
I used to tune the guitar a 1/2 step low to go better with my voice (back when I had one).

"Ever pick up an acoustic instrument after several days and discover how easy it plays because it's a little flat? My old arms are so arthritic that I have to wear a full arm sleeve to play and I can appreciate a little break..."

Switching to a lighter gauge of strings might help with that too - or would it change the sound too much?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Clay S. wrote:
Switching to a lighter gauge of strings might help with that too - or would it change the sound too much?


Thanks Clay, but I'm already down to .050-.010" for my personal parlor, "Blind Blake" and don't really care to go lighter, they just get too rubbery, wouldn't sound as good. They seem to drive the top perfectly. Action is set very low.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:03 am 
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Tune to any frequency that you wish, within reason. Baroque pitch is given as 415 Hz or 390 hz but of course it varied enormously over the years, also varied from town to town, sometimes higher than the current 440 Hz. We know all this from historical wind instruments and organs where the pitch is fixed. Of course there comes a point where the strings on a guitar become too slack to use or you've cranked up the pitch so that it's in danger of deforming the soundboard. There's nothing magical about 440Hz, it was just set as an orchestral standard, there's nothing magical about any other pitch either. Set it to the pitch that you desire. If you happen to be playing with other instruments that have fixed pitch then you don't have a choice. One of the advantages of instruments such as guitars and violins is that you have the option of changing pitch, should you wish. You can do it on a piano but it's a lot more difficult.



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:45 am 
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I have a couple of twelve string players that tune down and then capo back up to alleviate strain on their left hand and a tired instrument.


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