Official Luthiers Forum!

Recently received a new (month-old) custom guitar (not one of ours) that - with action adjust for 0.004" relief, 0.135" bass at 12th and 0.110" treble at 12th. With adjustment to 0.100"/0.080" (high but playable action), there will be little saddle left above the top of the bridge - perhaps 0.020" ...and extensive ramping to ensure a minimum angle of 15 degrees break over the saddle.

In other words, the guitar appears to have been shipped needing a neck rest.

So the question is: how best to handle the issue with the customer. What would you do? Helpful hints from the old hands here? The boss has already taken action, but I'm curious to see if there are options not considered here to handle the situation and the customer care issues.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

If it was one of mine I'd definitely want a phone call from the repair shop and I would either offer to fix it myself and cover the shipping or cover the cost of resetting the neck assuming the shop calling has the proper skill level.

I'd be sure the customer was not a humidity compulsive and maybe had three humidifiers in the case in the summer. I have seen that happen and the guitar ballooned up giving the impression of a poor neck set. Those never completely came back to baseline and usually needed a tweak.

Absolutely WORST thing you can do is bad mouth the builder. We all live in glass houses.

Is it a bolt-on?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

+1 ^^

"Absolutely WORST thing you can do is bad mouth the builder." --------- ditto!

Not nearly enough back ground info in the OP to establish an accurate narative (at least in my view)

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I've yet to get in a brand new guitar in need of a reset. Lots of other weird things, but not that. And I've seen them in need of a reset after just a few years, but not brand new. If I was the owner, I wouldn't accept delivery, and my recommendation would be to send it back to the builder.

Why would I, as the repair guy, take on the risk of all the myriad possibilities of damaging a brand new, presumably perfect guitar in the process of a very invasive repair, when it shouldn't have left the shop that way in the first place?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

I would think that anyone who had to bring "a new (month-old) custom guitar" to a repair shop for playability issues like that would be in touch with the builder poste haste, if the repair shop hadn't spoken to them first to give a heads-up and a chance to contact the owner.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

We have many repeat clients who are frequent guitar purchasers and this at times means commissioning from individual builders including the top names in the biz.

With no offense intended there are builders who clearly see Lutherie as an artistic expression or woodworking exercise and not ultimately crafting a tool... for .... a.... musician.....

We also have a Guitar C*nter near by.

A week does not go by that someone brings in a brand new ax for an inspection. They often are knowledgable enough to know that something is wrong, perhaps it badly needs a set-up (very common)... or worse.

If what we see is something that will be a limiting factor for the life of the instrument, in other words a manufacturing defect by the maker... AND if it cannot be easily and completely corrected without moderate or less expense we inquire as to how much the client wants to make the relationship..... with the instrument work. If they are at all unpleased we advise them to take the thing back.

We are sure that the neighborhood GC hates our guts in so much as our recommendations based on actual manufacturing defects that we see is to return the instrument. We also end up recommending a return likely once a week.... Or, in other words it happens all of the time. Recently one GC client brought us three in a row that we rejected... and he returned. He also worked there..... back in the day and knew the people....

With Luthier built guitars we see them less often but still see $7,000 to $15,000 guitars likely a couple of times a month. Recently we evaluated a $15,000 instrument, a commission that needed a neck reset...... Of course it's difficult for either Dave or I to not be opinionated and see this as complete BS in so much as we tend to be protective of our clients and VERY willing to go to the mat for them in defense of their interests.

We rendered our opinion, take it back, this should not be as we would with a G*bson, Fender, PRS, Martin even though this was a $15,000 instrument Luthier built instrument.

That's all you can do and IME what you should do, be honest, explain what you see and we won't even charge someone for this service because our business model is to be a "trusted advisor" who is not in the fray of the individual interests of f*ctories or builders. No offense intended. I personally believe that if you are selling guitars they better be freaking good.... and that the bar for Luthier built instruments should be ABOVE the bar for f*ctory instruments..... Price matters..... You also cannot provide the superior support network or warranty of say Martin making it even more important to provide exceptional value in all other respects. That's my personal opinion.....

Most of the time the instruments are returned at once. Sometimes the return takes a while for the client to stop grieving (this can be traumatic especially when someone waited a long time in line for their commission....)....

We refuse to get involved in warranty work for Luthiers.... because we will not accept third party payer situations from anyone but Martin.

To me I don't see any question here of protocol or defense of an industry or even builders that we may know (this has happened, when we know, personally the builder) it's completely a question of honesty and integrity. If the neck angle sucks and it's a limiting factor tell them, the client and explain what this means now and over time. Also explain that this is rare, should not be expected and is unacceptable under..... any.... circumstances.

It's not about bad mouthing builders it's about providing value, honestly, integrity, and even empathy.... for our very.... valued.... clients. With this said I am sure that your boss is doing the right thing(s).

Regarding contacting the builder that's not something that I would do. It is what it is and I only contact builders as I did this weekend by the way to tell them at times that one of their kids is in my shop, is very cool, to rest assured that we will take good care of her knowing that our friend crafted her and that the new steward is a great person. I just did this with a Mark Swanson Guitar Saturday.

But for reasons of sh*tty workmanship or manufacturing defects my business is between our client and us and I have no duty to contact the builder.

The question will always remain though, why did the builder let the POS out of the shop AND that should be a warning of sorts to builders, other trade pros will not be complicit in helping you rip someone off...... We don't sell guitars, did not sell the defective... one and have NO duty to anyone but the client.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Gosh, there are more parallels between the practice of law and lutherie than I thought!

As a lawyer, I get asked to review the work of other lawyers from other firms. It happens in a variety of contexts. There are forces that could, if I let them, skew the review. One the one hand, some lawyers want to be protective of the profession, so they might be tempted to make problems caused by the reviewed lawyer seem less important than they really are. On the other hand, some lawyers might be tempted to look better to this new client by making the reviewed lawyer look worse than they really are.

The only right answer is to be as straight an arrow as I can be and give unvarnished truth (or, in many cases, unbiased opinion) to the client. That is what they are paying me for. They are not paying me to protect my profession, nor are they paying me to market myself by unfairly trashing someone else. They need good advice, regardless of what is best for the profession or me personally, so that is what I try my best to give them.

Now, the answer is often that a problem has a solution that is best provided by the reviewed lawyer, instead of by me. I should not hesitate to give that advice when it applies. The same seems to be true here. What luthier wants this customer thinking poorly of the luthier's work in general, based on this one incident? I bet the original luthier would jump at the chance to make this right. Facilitating that discussion between the original luthier and the client, based on the objective truth (as determined by you, the straight arrow), might be the right path forward.

Thanks, gentlemen - much appreciated. Food for thought.

So to provide just a bit more information: the neck uses a traditional dovetail, and there was no evidence of excessive humidification or other failure of care by the owner. The quality of workmanship and materials is otherwise above what I understand to be the average on small shop builder instruments, and it is a nice sounding instrument.

As the issue is still an open one, I will not comment on resolution at this time.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

Frequently a customer of mine doesn't have the language or understanding to explain a problem but they know it's not right. I tell them I'm happy to explain it to whoever they bought the instrument from. They are free to give the seller my number and have them call me if they want to. They frequently do. I leave the solution up to the buyer/seller. I work for the customer that comes into my shop and my job is to call it like I see it.
One variation is ebay disputes. If I write letter and/or provide photo's for someone, I charge for the time to do it. Buying and selling through an inaccessible faceless organization and having me contribute to working it out I see as cost shifting onto me.

I guess I'm surprised that the customer didn't contact the builder about the issue but took it instead to your repair shop after only one month? If that's the case I would suggest that he goes back to the builder. In the 50+ instruments I've built I had one come back that needed a neck reset. I'm not sure how I screwed that one up but I did, and I fixed it. As they say #@$% happens.

If I were the builder I would like to have the opportunity to "make it right" by my client. This could be doing repairs or even substituting a new instrument. A one month old instrument should go back to the builder
I make it a practice to contact clients at 1, 6 and 12 months for progress reports and client satisfaction.

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Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

I think your approach is wise, Greg. I give my instruments away as gifts, but always tell the recipient that part of the deal is that they promise to contact me first should anything seem awry. If I ran a repair shop and a situation as the one described in this thread arose, I would encourage the customer to first try contacting the builder. If they were unable to do so, or the builder couldn't/wouldn't address the problem, then I'd proceed with the repair.

We read a lot about the value repair experience provides a builder and I'm sure this is accurate. However, even the most skilled repair professional can have an instrument they've serviced returned for improvement. One of the reasons I first started working on my own guitars and subsequently building them, was due to uninspired service and mediocre work I had received as a customer of highly reputable, venerated repair shops.

As noted above, stuff happens and this is true for all of us.

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George :-)

The guitar was received from the builders about a month ago, and - after ordering a pickup system - the owner brought it in for installation/action adjustment for uncomfortably high action. We noted the stout action at time of induction and stated that we would further assess setup and install the pickup system during the time the guitar would be in the shop.

The builder is geographically remote from the buyer, and we've found that few luthiers will attempt final setup without the customer readily at hand, so we see setup work on everything from $150 Craigslist specials to expensive vintage or custom instruments as a shop local to those buyers.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

Oops...double post! I am halfway through my annual tour of duty as a beach and beach-house quality inspector, which involves a lot of wiggling of toes in sand, decisions on what to have the cabana boy or girl (I have both this year) bring me in terms of refreshment, and whether the hot tub is a degree or two too warm, so I am a little less attentive to the needs of my digital life than usual.

Again, thanks for the robust discussion...I am following it closely - very closely - as I contemplate whether to start the cocktail hour a bit early (yardarms and time zones justify it), or go for a run on the beach (78 degrees, breezy and a lovely surf) to see what new treasures have been washed up since morning.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

I don't understand why people are so surprised this instrument wound up in a repair shop.
I live in a small town but this scenario is pretty common.
There is some irony here. It seems buyers and builders are just re-discovering the role of a local dealer/retailer.
It used to be, you could bring a guitar back to a local seller in Durango after 6 months for a check up. That shop is long gone but the cost of maintenance and repair is not. That means local repair folk are now a separate part of the retail system. As long as shipping is so time consuming and expensive, they will have to get paid by builder or buyer. Even if the builder is willing to do the work for free, buyers can be reluctant or at least unhappy about going without their instrument for so long. To say nothing of the shipping risk.
If you sell instruments and ship them far away, buyers are obviously not going to send them back when the action starts to feel stiff. Even if a buyer contacts a builder first, I would expect the builder to direct them to someone local first to see if it's just humidity or a rod adjustment before having them put it in a box.
Builders should probably think a bit about where the original owner will take an instrument if it needs adjustment. As many have mentioned, S$^%t happens and having to send it back to its birthplace is not likely to produce warm and fuzzy feelings in a buyer.

One other ugly truth is some builders may not have the skills to fix the problems they build into their own instruments.
On quite a few occasions, customers have brought me a handbuilt instrument and they love how it sounds but it has a major playability issue. They are reluctant to send it to be fixed by someone who apparently didn't get it right the first time.

Re-reading this, I sound like a pompous @ss. I think it's because I spend alot of my time on the problem end of things.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just an @ss.

I'm surprised when I read some of the responses. I generally assume the best of intentions, and strive to maintain a lack of hubris, at least in not ranting on about a situation where I likely don't know the whole story (feigned arrogance implies one does).

I've had a number of instruments show up in my shop from builders, and regardless of the scenario, I often make the effort to reach out to them. From southern Virginia to California to Spain. It's a community and I assume a respect for the craft and the resulting instrument first. And I can do that, all while taking care of my customers. It doesn't have to be either/or ... unless I think I'm so special ...

Andy

My business is between my clients and us and we have no obligation be it to a builder, an industry or the seven Gods of Game of Thrones beyond our obligation to our clients and our business.

Anyone who does much in the way of volume of repairs is going to be sensitive to things that interfere with a defined starting point, a defined ending point and a mutually agreed upon definition of success with all of these agreements being with the client and not a builder.

We see it frequently and I will even go so far as to add that when triaging an instrument from an individual Luthier who is not one of the "usual suspects" who are well known and established my keen eyes.... are made to get keener. Experience tells me to look longer and harder for potential issues. I'm not sitting in judgement of anyone but I am specifically looking for shotty workmanship, poor practices, use of green wood that would make my work and the scope of same....... creep or expand beyond the quotation offered. BTW we see all of these things at times from small builders, it seems to be par for the course.... with the names that are not very established. We also see builders come and go all of the time.

G*bsons, Martins, and many of the established builders are to borrow from Rummy known knowns and evaluated in a more routine manner. The builder that I've never heard of from Montana or Texas or Ypsilanti gets more scrutiny.

After all people don't bring us instruments because everything is wonderful....... with the exception of pup installs.

I'm a builder too with guitars out there getting things from pups installed to a simple strap button. Would I like to be called when one of mine shows up in someone's shop, not really.... I recognize that the instrument and one of my kids left my control when I accepted renumeration for it.

I'll add that my warranty is also for my life as a Luthier, I provide free string changes for life too to encourage folks to give me a look over time AND I will do and am capable of any and all repairs that could ever be required to one of mine including neck resets. But if they go elsewhere my only hope is that they get treated as fairly and the instrument as professionally as I would treat the client and instrument. But again my clients have no obligation to come to me nor does who they go to have an obligation to put me in the loop.

I also recognize two additional things. 1) I have no control over this..... and 2) The best defense against some deviant, Uke molesting repair person abusing one of mine is to have built it as well as possible in the first place.

Repair people have no obligation in any sense to ever contact builders. I actually do contact builders though but more for me than for them. I know many of these folks and contacted Mark Swanson in the last week just to share and say hello.

It has nothing to do with being special..... that didn't need to be said.... we are all hopefully wanting the same things here which are quality instruments handled in professional and ethical manners with the clients concerns and interests being placed first at all times. I don't see making contact with a builder in this equation nor will I.

Lastly with these discussions it's true that not all of us have all the facts nor will we. But generally speaking a new instrument needing a neck reset is inexcusable.... and we've seen it too. We've also seen four year old $4,000 Luthier built instruments being retired because the repairs to numerous green wood top cracks, lifting bridge, need for a neck reset and compete refret exceeded any justification to keep the POS alive. True story and this was number 154 for the builder. It was also one of their last before retirement shining a light on the possibility that it can happen to the best of builders if they also don't know when to quit....

The back story matters not. The client was out $4,000 and any future faith in any small builder. They accepted the fact that they were ripped off and went and purchased a Collings. I would have too.....

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Here are a couple of true stories, for what they are worth...

I made a 12 string for a customer from Hawaii. He picked it up from me in Kansas City, and I emphasized that he was going to need to be extra vigilant about excessive humidity due to his local climate. He called me one month later saying the action was very high and that he had taken the guitar to a local luthier who informed him that it needed a neck reset. He claimed he he had maintained the guitar at 50% RH. I knew he had not. I told him to return it to me for evaluation and repair. Later that evening he called again to inform me that his power had been off for a week while he was away, subjecting the guitar to 100 degree temps and 100% RH.

When I received the guitar it was clear it had been in a sauna. The top was domed up and I could feel the unevenness in the neck laminations where the wood had swelled. I reset the neck and sent it back with multiple saddles for future height adjustments. He recently told me it plays and sounds great. I'm sure the local luthier thought the guitar had been made with the neck angle flaw.

Two years ago I made a guitar for a local singer-songwriter who travels a lot. I thoroughly covered climate control and warranty issues with him. After having the guitar for several months, he brought it in to me for restringing, which I do for free for all my guitar buyers. There were multiple cracks in the finish. When I asked him if he was following my directions for climate control, he said no, but that he "intended to do so soon." He said the cracks showed up when he had the guitar in Colorado during a very cold and dry period. Last I heard, he had moved to LA, was still not doing any humidification, and had experienced more finish issues and a top crack.

I've had other guitars come in for a setup that hadn't changed more than 1/64" in five years.

I can see both sides of the argument. As a repair shop owner, I would definitely send a customer with a month old guitar back to the builder for repair work. The builder can determine if the repairs are covered under warranty. If the customer can't return to the builder or doesn't want to, I treat it as any other job that comes in.

As a builder, I would definitely want to be informed if there was an issue with one of my guitars no matter how long ago I made it. I stand behind my work and would make every effort to remedy the problem to the customer's satisfaction. I would appreciate the courtesy of a repair shop communicating with me about a problem. That said, I do not warranty my guitars for any work required by lack of correct humidity and/or temperatures.

There are incompetent builders who don't know how to set necks correctly, make good nuts, do great fret work, etc. Factories can be no better. In the last two years I have helped several customers return brand new Gibson acoustics with bad neck angles. I see examples of both in my shop regularly. In my opinion, the builder/manufacturer should be given the opportunity to make it right. If a customer isn't comfortable dealing with a builder for repair or warranty work, then they shouldn't have bought an instrument from them in the first place.

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It will probably be alright.

AndyB, I apologize for the tone of my post.
I don’t think I’m special and I have tremendous respect for the difficulty of building an instrument free of problems. Even after a fair amount of time building and fixing them, I still find the task of having things come out spot on intimidating.

Most small builders I interact with show an incredibly high skill level and lots of integrity. It’s a great resource to call them and find out about details useful to a repair. But the fact is some builders and large-scale manufactures either don’t know what they don’t know (unknown unknowns?), are hoping no one will notice a problem, or are simply cashing in on romance and reputation. I tend to suspend judgement when I see a problem, but how it’s resolved, after a builder is informed, will inevitably lead to a judgement, good or bad.
What I am trying to offer to builders is the concerned view from a repair person far afield where many of the buyers and instruments wind up. You can certainly blow my comments off as self-aggrandizement if you want to.

1. Instruments are fragile, temperamental, hard to make well, and generally require some skill to maintain and fix. The notion that a builder will not be somewhat dependent on a third party and instead handle everything directly with a buyer through the mail is problematic and in my view not realistic.

2. If a customer takes one of your instruments to someone who knows what they are doing, they now have an expert working for them. That can be an advantage to you and the buyer. Or, It can expose what you don’t know, or tried to slip past the buyer. It’s often easy to spot signs someone knew about a problem before an instrument was shipped. I sometimes see over-set necks. with saddle heights that make me wince and piles of relief in the neck in an obvious effort to send it out in a "normal" playing range. It gets a little dry, starts rattling and I have to tell a customer there is nowhere left to go.

The most recent, of many, examples was an expensive handmade mandolin. All the string slots and bridge were cheated to the treble side to compensate for a neck way off angle to the body and tailpiece. It wasn’t enough and the bridge always migrated to the point the strings were too close to the fingerboard edge. How long to send it back and get it corrected from a builder with a waiting list? The builder, dealer, or buyer often just want a problem like this to go way without the hassles of shipping so I get hired by my customer to do the work. In this case, moving the tailpiece and making a complicated Ebony shim, shaped like a potato chip, to compensate for the new tailpiece location.


Greg, I appreciate everything in your post. I just had a Hawaii inflation/deflation issue I helped resolve (not one of yours!).
But take issue with this:



Really?
I suppose this could work if you told a potential customer this before making the sale. It seems like it would be a lot easier to find someone near the buyer who can tell the difference between a neck angle problem and a moisture problem.

Repair folk see the build mistakes and the builders experience repairman/woman that don't know what their doing.

David, I can see how my comment might seem to be narrow minded. What I meant to say is that if a customer doesn't want to go to the builder when a problem arises, out of a lack of confidence in the builder, then why buy from them to begin with?

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It will probably be alright.

They may have confidence when buying, but loose some when the problem arises and an inspection shows all is not well.

If the neck angle problem Woodie G posted about was one of your instruments and you had a great reputation and it didn't seem congruent with the rest of the build quality, I would almost certainly counsel my customer to give you a call. Not necessarily because I believe in a code of the craft or that I have a moral obligation to give you the first shot at fixing it, but because it would be the most likely way to bring satisfaction to my customer.
A more common scenario to me is someone I've done a re-fret for brings in a new instrument they purchased. Maybe because they played one by the builder somewhere and loved it, were enthralled by a website and had great, confidence inspiring, conversations with the builder or read others waxing poetic about them on a forum. The new owner likes the way it sounds and wants to keep it but the fretwork is bad and not suitable for their needs. Not the kind of bad that says one just slipped through but the kind that convinces me giving the builder another shot at it is unlikely to please my customer even if it's, "free" or "under warranty".
I would likely tell them they can call the builder and I will still be happy to talk to them but if the builder suggests returning it so they can re-do it, this may not have the outcome they are looking for.
I don't see this as usurping a right of the builder, or snaking work because it landed in my lap, or blowing my own horn. It's just offering the best advice I can to the person I work for.


Hey Woodie G, did you just wind us up like a toy for entertainment during your vacation? Shame on you!

Woodie is that big blue thing on the right side of the beach Chris Christie?

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Ann Arbor Guitars

North Carolina near Nag's Head...I believe Governor Christie might be found somewhat to the north and a bit east of the pictured stretch of Atlantic beach. If memory serves, the blue object referenced is where our cabana staff holds court for a few hours a day, and where a perfect Manhattan might be obtained should one desire not one, but two Luxardo cherries, double bitters, and my preferred High West rye. The occasional bit of beach flotsam in the canapes is no reason to discard the trappings of civilization whilst in bathing costume.

Also - let's be aware that we are instructed by those who believe themselves to be our betters that we are being insensitive when we attach some degree of shame to a few - or perhaps a few dozen - extra kilograms of body mass. The Honorable Mr. Christie admittedly tends towards the huskier side of things, but with today's satellite surveillance technology, even someone as svelte as myself may be seen from orbit, though perhaps not with just the naked eye.

I missed my run yesterday afternoon, so combined my 'dawn patrol' quality assurance inspection of the mix of sand and surf with a long run this morning...such a lovely sky, don't you think?



And my apologies, Mr. Farmer - no instrument-oriented content here...just the hedonistic pleasures of a clear view to the eastern sky just after sunrise. If I have distracted you from the business of repair or building, it is - I assure you - purely intentional.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

Thanks Woodie and my apologies for being offensive and I did know I was too, no excuses.

It's sure beautiful there and then some!!!

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Ann Arbor Guitars