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Cutting a rosette ring
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49528		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  WendyW [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Cutting a rosette ring
One of the elements of the rosette I am making is a central ring of Leopard wood and the edges of the wood want to chip when I cut it. Somewhere I saw to flood the wood with CA glue before cutting the ring. If I do that, will I have to use CA to glue it in the rosette channel, or can I just sand the bottom of it and use Titebond? Would it work as well to flood it with shellac instead of CA?

This is a single wide rosette on a classical, with a central wood ring, and veneer lines inside and outside the ring. Would it be better to cut it a bit oversize, glue it in, and then cut the inner and outer channels, at the same time trimming the ring to size? That would be my instinct if the wood did not want to chip.
Thanks, Wendy
Author:  J De Rocher [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
What are you using to cut the ring?
Author:  WendyW [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Am using a dremel with router base and Stew Macs rosette and soundhole routing jig. I do have an LMI soundhole/rosette circle cutter but the wood is too hard to cut all the way through with it. I thought maybe I could inlay it oversize, then score it with the LMI tool, and then sneak up on it with the dremel when routing the inner and outer channels. The grain of the leopard wood wanted to chip with my veneer blade on my bandsaw but honestly I haven't tried routing it yet.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Down cut spiral bits will give a pretty clean cut, Wendy. Is there much run-out with your Dremel? That can cause an uneven cut, as well.

Alex
Author:  J De Rocher [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
If you haven't tried cutting the leopard wood with your Dremel setup, I would do a test cut first to see how it actually behaves. I haven't used leopard wood yet, but spiral down cut bits have given very crisp edges on all the woods I've routed so far.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Spiral down cut bit. Light passes. High speed.
Author:  WendyW [ Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Guess I will try a test cut with a spiral downcut. Thanks!
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Flooding with CA seems wise. And then seal your channel with shellac then use CA to glue it in.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
I agree with a down cut bit, high speed and a good dremel with little runout or preferably a laminate trimmer, and testing first, and using CA.

I do mine like this:
Cut the channel the right size for the wood inlay plus a little less than for the purfling you plan to use.
Make the wood inlay almost as big as the channel.
Seal the channel edges with shellac.
Flood the wood inlay with thin CA
Once that is dry I clean the piece up some by scraping with a razor blade.
Glue the piece in the channel with CA. Let dry at least 12 hours
Route the purfling lines and away you go.

I suspect the wood glued in that fashion, then cut will not be inclined to chip, I use a laminate trimmer with a circle attachment. They cut much better than the dremel.
Author:  Haans [ Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
If I may, a warning...

For a very short while, I used cyano to glue in rosettes. If you use it, be VERY sure you have the area very well sealed. Nowhere do you want to have cyano leaking out anywhere or dripping onto the spruce. You will end up with a yellow splotch in the area. One that won't come out.
That was a lesson for me long ago and I would highly recommend your own idea of sanding the bottom or the ring after cutting (80 grit) and then using yellow glue and clamp overnight. You might consider CYA only around the edges before you cut the circles on the Leopard Wood ring. Then use a wood glue to glue in the ring. My own preference (although I never built AGF rosettes) for this operation is Elmer's Carpentry glue, good cauls and clamps.

Image
Author:  George L [ Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
What they said. [:Y:]

Plus, before routing any material, I find that scoring a line results in a cleaner edge. I use an LMI rosette/circle cutting tool for this procedure. I use a gramil to do this before routing binding/purfling channels as well.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Haans, Are you talking about that slight yellowing in the fingerboard extension area? I'm not really sure I see any yellowing. The Rosette looks very nice to my old eyes
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Joe, that WAS a good one.
Looks like Photobucket wants $2.50/month for me to post photos now. Guess that is the end of my photo posting. They have changed the rules on me and I just won't pay it.
THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING.
Goodby internet...for the poor.
Author:  Woodie G [ Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Mr. Brentrup:

You might opt to use one of the many free photo hosting sites that us other poor people use...no bureaucratic nightmare of a program required, but you may be subjected to a few ads now and then.

Just off the top of my head, here's a few:

o Imgur (20MB image size limit - not sure on max storage, but not an issue thus far)
o Google Photos (unlimited storage for images under 16 MB or taken with a so-called 'smart' phone or point-and-shoot...larger images like a DSLR would have to be resized, but given our restrictions on posted image sizes, likely not a big issue)
o Flickr (1 TB of free storage)
o PostImage (no specific image size or storage restrictions)
o Facebook (no limits...but the usual caveats apply re: the disease of social media)

Also check with your internet provider...they typically provide some free storage which may be available to host images.
Author:  kencierp [ Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Quote:
Guess that is the end of my photo posting


All I do is copy the "img URL" under the picture and paste it here in the message box, no notification of any price increases.

Oops just remembered - I do pay a free to get rid of all the ads which makes the program run about 20 times faster.
Author:  WendyW [ Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Never got back to testing anything last weekend. I'm hoping to do it this weekend. Haans, I was planning on installing the inner and outer lines with CA anyway. I prefer to do that rather than having the lines all swelling from yellow glue while trying to insert them in the channel. I usually go way overboard on sealing the rosette area of the top with shellac before using the CA, I seal the channel edges as well as at least 2 inches of the top around the rosette. I also use a cardboard overlay on the top to mask it from any drips while working. Like you, I learned the hard way.

I would rather use my laminate trimmer than the dremel. I say that every time, but never have gotten around to making the circle cutting attachment for the laminate trimmer. My dremel does not seem to have runout and has worked well for this job so far.
Author:  Clinchriver [ Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
WendyW wrote:

I would rather use my laminate trimmer than the dremel. I say that every time, but never have gotten around to making the circle cutting attachment for the laminate trimmer. My dremel does not seem to have runout and has worked well for this job so far.



Wendy, Your laminate trimmer is so much better than the wobbly Dremel..... I ran down a Porter Cable 310 and with the Bishop Cochrane base cutting a rosette is a piece of cake
Author:  Haans [ Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Thanks for the input Woody and Ken.
I have over a thousand photos on that bucket, and since they have seemingly removed all my photos from posts over the years, I have started to remove my photos from that "site". From what I can see, all I can do is manually remove each one and then delete it. I would hate to put them all up on another site, only to have some restriction (for their profit, of course) pop up at a later date.
Ken, I could put up with the un-ending ads, but I can't put up with their "cold" announcement that all of a sudden, I was violating one of their "new" rules.
Reminds me of Photoshop, in that after Photoshop 5. something, they decided to charge by the month for something I bought for a lot of $$$. Needless to say, I still have Photoshop 5. and never bought into their "service" after that...
Wendy, good luck with your efforts. There are many ways to do things and you should pick the one that works best for you. Sorry for sidetracking your thread...
Author:  Sprockett [ Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Wendy,

If you use a dremel a couple of tips...

1. Find some way to keep the power cord above your cutting surface, if you pull that cord the bit will travel.
2. Take slow deliberate passes, move against the rotation of the bit, you do not want it to run on you.
3. Make sure everything is flat and the the dremel is fastened tight, check for ANY wiggle.
4. Use maximum RPM's...

One other thing you can do with an insert rosette (as opposed to inlaid lines) is to lightly angle the edge of the rosette with some sandpaper so the top edge just slightly pushes into the soundboard. I'm talking very little, but it helps give a clean edge. All you need to do is pull your inner and outer edges in just a hair, it takes patience but it works.

And yes a laminate router is best, I use a circle cutter called Micro Fence, it's stable, allow for very fine adjustment and has served me for over 10 years without a hitch.

Good Luck..
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Wendy, maybe this has already been suggested, if so I apologize, but I've found for me to get really clean cuts I need to pre-scribe the cut with the cutter I made shown in the pics.
Works great!
Attachment:
rosette scribe.jpg

Attachment:
DSCF2945.JPG
Author:  Sprockett [ Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting a rosette ring
Jim Watts wrote:
Wendy, maybe this has already been suggested, if so I apologize, but I've found for me to get really clean cuts I need to pre-scribe the cut with the cutter I made show.
Works great!
Attachment:
rosette scribe.jpg

Attachment:
DSCF2945.JPG


I know what I need to make this weekend :)
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