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Sober reading about Bois de Rose
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Author:  TRein [ Mon May 15, 2017 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Sober reading about Bois de Rose
Lots of talk lately on this forum about Bois de Rose. Here is a link to a French language article in Le Monde about mismanagement and criminal activity centered around this wood:

http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2016/09/26/trafic-de-bois-de-rose-ultime-avertissement-pour-madagascar_5003266_3212.html

I could not find a way to post an English translation of the article, but if you are interested, search "Trafic de bois de rose" in Google and hit "translate".

Sobering reading, to say the least.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon May 15, 2017 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
Yup, as the world becomes filled up with consumers so shall the world be consumed.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Mon May 15, 2017 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
My French is not that good but I got the impression problems arose from ilegal exports of rosewoods, not specifically bois de rose (d.maritima). Is that correct?
Anyway, article is from September and they said sanctions should come in 3 months time. Do you know if that happened?a full imbargo is heavy stuff.

Oh, and thanks for the link.
Author:  Marn99 [ Mon May 15, 2017 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
mqbernardo wrote:
My French is not that good but I got the impression problems arose from ilegal exports of rosewoods, not specifically bois de rose (d.maritima). Is that correct?
Anyway, article is from September and they said sanctions should come in 3 months time. Do you know if that happened?a full imbargo is heavy stuff.

Oh, and thanks for the link.

You are correct, CITES says that legal Dalbergia maritima isn't the problem, there's nothing wrong with pre-ban stock. the issue comes from China's insatiable appetite for Rosewoods and Bubinga. For the past maybe 8 years, there's been this huge craze for replica Ming Dynasty furniture. The genuine antiques were originally made from Huanghuali rosewood (Dalbergia odorifera) or Zitan (Pterocarpus santalinus). Both of those species are very quickly becoming commercially extinct and the Chinese government has expanded its list of what can legally be sold as "hongmu" furniture. That checklist made by the government however, conveniently doesn't mention if any of the species on the list are endangered or not. The way smugglers got rosewoods into China was by labeling the containers as something such as wood pulp, labeling CITES listed species as a visually similar species that isn't listed, or hiding CITES listed rosewood logs among non listed rosewood logs. That is why I like the new CITES law on rosewood so much, there are clauses and exceptions for instrument makers and non-commercial travel with instruments, but it really cracks down on smuggling, now, instead of being able to hide the endangered stuff among not so endangered rosewood, you're done for if caught smuggling any rosewood at all. I haven't read the CITES statement on rosewood in a long time, but I recall that the percentage of illegal rosewood going someplace other than Asia is approximately 8% or something like that.
Author:  caribou [ Mon May 15, 2017 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
Thanks for the info about the use of D. maritima in chinese furnitures. I was wondering why are these furnitures made of it, thinking that perhaps there was an ancient commercial way between China and Madagascar... so there was not.
Marn99 wrote:
That is why I like the new CITES law on rosewood so much, there are clauses and exceptions for instrument makers and non-commercial travel with instruments, but it really cracks down on smuggling, now, instead of being able to hide the endangered stuff among not so endangered rosewood, you're done for if caught smuggling any rosewood at all. I haven't read the CITES statement on rosewood in a long time, but I recall that the percentage of illegal rosewood going someplace other than Asia is approximately 8% or something like that.
Well, I won't be so optimistic. For me the new law is a non-sense, lot of paperwork for the good guys and... nothing change for the smugglers, logging and exporting some of these species is illegal now but was illegal before 2017... if there is no strong control and punishment (and not for the extremely poor malagasy lumberjack...), nothing change.
Plus, some countries like India where rosewood is replant and farmed will see the demand decreasing and... plant and farm another thing, something they could sell.
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon May 15, 2017 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
For so many of those guys in those places - the governments are such a mess and corruption is so rampant that the people adopt an attitude of "I dont care so long as I get mine..."

When demand is huge - people will figure out how to accomplish supply....

I think the legalization and regulation of illegal drugs in the USA serves as an example of how the whole process works. When gigantic demand exists - often the best solution is to figure out how to enact a legal framework that is tractable and navigable by average merchants and people will do the bulk of their business within that framework.. Sunshine is the best disinfectant as they say... Get the transactions out into the light and many of these problems start working their way out....

This is how you break the backs of the cartels and mafia which inhabit these markets... It literally cuts their legs right out from under them...
Author:  Marn99 [ Mon May 15, 2017 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
caribou wrote:
Thanks for the info about the use of D. maritima in chinese furnitures. I was wondering why are these furnitures made of it, thinking that perhaps there was an ancient commercial way between China and Madagascar... so there was not.
Marn99 wrote:
That is why I like the new CITES law on rosewood so much, there are clauses and exceptions for instrument makers and non-commercial travel with instruments, but it really cracks down on smuggling, now, instead of being able to hide the endangered stuff among not so endangered rosewood, you're done for if caught smuggling any rosewood at all. I haven't read the CITES statement on rosewood in a long time, but I recall that the percentage of illegal rosewood going someplace other than Asia is approximately 8% or something like that.
Well, I won't be so optimistic. For me the new law is a non-sense, lot of paperwork for the good guys and... nothing change for the smugglers, logging and exporting some of these species is illegal now but was illegal before 2017... if there is no strong control and punishment (and not for the extremely poor malagasy lumberjack...), nothing change.
Plus, some countries like India where rosewood is replant and farmed will see the demand decreasing and... plant and farm another thing, something they could sell.

Point taken, I would agree with those statements. I do think that paperwork can be a good thing if used properly though. It can separate those with good intentions and legal lumber from those who don't.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue May 16, 2017 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
That is sad. Bois de Rose is a favorite of mine also.

When I look around at all the rosewoods, I see less supply and higher prices. It seems to be the same for ebonies and hondo mahogany.

Scarry Times
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue May 16, 2017 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sober reading about Bois de Rose
truckjohn wrote:
For so many of those guys in those places - the governments are such a mess and corruption is so rampant that the people adopt an attitude of "I dont care so long as I get mine..."

When demand is huge - people will figure out how to accomplish supply....

I think the legalization and regulation of illegal drugs in the USA serves as an example of how the whole process works. When gigantic demand exists - often the best solution is to figure out how to enact a legal framework that is tractable and navigable by average merchants and people will do the bulk of their business within that framework.. Sunshine is the best disinfectant as they say... Get the transactions out into the light and many of these problems start working their way out....

This is how you break the backs of the cartels and mafia which inhabit these markets... It literally cuts their legs right out from under them...


Sounds like a few guitar makers that I've come across. :?
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