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My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
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Author:  Marn99 [ Tue May 02, 2017 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
So I haven't been on OLF for a looong time, I have been on TDPRI because I was building my first guitar, and that wasn't an acoustic. So here is what I have been up to lately! It's not done yet but I have taken myself by surprise by how well this has turned out so far.
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Walnut telecaster neck.JPG

So, I know it is quite a large step from electric to acoustic, but I think I am up to the challenge, as I am working with the luthier who has guided me (but has done none of the work) on the electric. I am planning on building an 1899 Martin 0-28 and I have a few questions. LMII sells their herringbone in bold and fine sizes/pattern. What is correct for 19th century martin? The photos of the late 19th century martin I am using have a 5/9/5 rosette, does anyone make those? If not, where can I find them? The only way I will be deviating from the original guitar will be very early 20th century slotted diamond position markers, what are the dimensions of them stewmac and LMII sell theirs in a variety of sizes and I want to be correct to the original antique martins? I am using ivoroid binding, what should the height be and what should the thickness be (I was thinking .060)? The herringbone is only on the top of this guitar, on the back it is, in this order from inside to out, black, white, and ivoroid, I assume it should be the same thickness as the herringbone on top? Finally, stewmac and LMII sell their zipper backstrip in 1/4 width, is this correct? now that I got the questions out of the way, here is what the guitar is going to be made of. All the wood will be quartersawn unless stated otherwise. Neck will meet body at the 12th fret.
AA or AAA Adirondack spruce, small parlor guitar top (not having to spend over 100 dollars on an dreadnought Adirondack top for a parlor guitar is a godsend)
Plantation grown 1st grade East Indian Rosewood back and sides (plantation grown is just as good as wild, but it is more environmentally friendly and has greater color variation)
Plantation grown Honduran Mahogany neck, with a bridle joint dart volute and slotted headstock (stewmac's Honduran Mahogany is harvested CITES compliant)
plantation East Indian rosewood headstock overlay
Gabon Ebony fingerboard from Taylor guitar's famous sustainable Crelicam Ebony mill in Cameroon (as far as I know this is the only FSC certified ebony mill on earth, I have to have the wood shipped all the way from Spain, but it is worth it, I don't think I could sleep at night making a guitar with ebony from any other source)
Gabon Ebony bridge (same source, Crelicam Ebony Mill)
bar frets
white mother of pearl slotted diamond fret markers
bone nut
bone saddle
5 degree unslotted bone pins with ebony dots
bone endpin with ebony dot
Sitka spruce bracing and back joint reinforcement (Martin never used Adirondack spruce for bracing, only the tops were Adirondack)
traditional style Honduran Mahogany kerfing
Honduran Mahogany tail block
Honduran Mahogany neck block, dovetail joint
maple bridge plate
Ivoroid end graft
Ivoroid heel cap
ivoroid binding
Herringbone binding top
5/9/5 rosette
black white binding back
zipper backstrip
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue May 02, 2017 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Sounds like a fun build. I will be following along.
Author:  Freeman [ Tue May 02, 2017 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Nice looking tele-clone. You seem pretty specific about the year and details of your guitar - you must have good plans. That should answer any of the detail questions on binding, purfling, etc. Frankly, I don't think that stuff matters as much as the top thickness, bracing, etc. I'm assuming that since your plans are 1899 you will be bracing for gut strings - I don't think Martin was fully into steel until 1920 (altho I know there were steel string options from the turn of the century). Bar frets are period correct but modern frets are a whole lot easier to install.

I applaud your choice of sustainable woods and other materials - however if you are trying to be correct to the period remember that Martin wasn't very environmentally aware at the time - ivory, tortoise shell, Brazilian rosewood...

I have built several single ought sized guitars but not specifically copies of any particular year or model. These are more or less style 42 trim, with Lutz tops.

Image

On the left is Brazilian rosewood, Madagascar on the right.

Image

Otherwise pretty generic Scott Antes plans with lighter bracing, designed for steel strings. I've also built a third one with Sitka top and EIR back and sides - frankly I can't hear in big difference between them. They are wonderful little guitars and I think you will enjoy playing yours.
Author:  Marn99 [ Wed May 03, 2017 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Freeman wrote:
Nice looking tele-clone. You seem pretty specific about the year and details of your guitar - you must have good plans. That should answer any of the detail questions on binding, purfling, etc. Frankly, I don't think that stuff matters as much as the top thickness, bracing, etc. I'm assuming that since your plans are 1899 you will be bracing for gut strings - I don't think Martin was fully into steel until 1920 (altho I know there were steel string options from the turn of the century). Bar frets are period correct but modern frets are a whole lot easier to install.

I applaud your choice of sustainable woods and other materials - however if you are trying to be correct to the period remember that Martin wasn't very environmentally aware at the time - ivory, tortoise shell, Brazilian rosewood...

I have built several single ought sized guitars but not specifically copies of any particular year or model. These are more or less style 42 trim, with Lutz tops.

Image

On the left is Brazilian rosewood, Madagascar on the right.

Image

Otherwise pretty generic Scott Antes plans with lighter bracing, designed for steel strings. I've also built a third one with Sitka top and EIR back and sides - frankly I can't hear in big difference between them. They are wonderful little guitars and I think you will enjoy playing yours.

Yes, it will be strung with gut or steel wound silk strings. As a matter of fact, I don't have plans for this guitar. What I have gotten so far has been gleaned from reading about and poring over images of instruments from this period. I have yet to find specific measurements of these instruments. As for the environmental friendliness, I'm glad you noticed! When making an instrument environmental impact of the species I am using has always been no 1. I only plan on making 1 or 2 brazilian rosewood acoustics in my lifetime, and those will without a doubt be personal instruments with the wood cut from stumps and CITES certified.
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu May 04, 2017 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Before you go build a gut strung replica of a turn of the century Martin - its worth trying gut strings on an old parlor to see if you like the difference in sound. There are old miscellaneous brand parlor guitars (Washburn/Lyon Healey, Regal, Oscar Schmidt, Stromburg, European, etc....) around from the turn of the century for reasonable prices.... Ladder brace parlor guitars from that time period can be found in the standard size 1 pattern... You could A/B steel vs nylon to get an idea of the difference in sound to expect...

Another option is to head on over to a place like Gruhn and play the real deal and see if you like it vs one slightly newer wearing steel strings...

Reason I mention this is that there are very few nylon string builders doing old Martin and Western European patterns... Perhaps its just not en vogue.. Perhaps Segovia poisoned the well.. But for whatever reason - it doesnt seem popular with the nylon string guitar buying public.
Author:  Freeman [ Fri May 05, 2017 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
What John said.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what you want to build. Is it a historically correct copy of a 1899 Martin? If so you probably want either accurate plans drawn from the guitar you want to emulate or an actual guitar that you can measure. You are pretty obsessed with some of the details but you seem to be glossing over the important parameters. Good plans will have the details of purfling and rosette, but will also show critical dimensions and how it is braced. There are a few plan sets from the GAL and some other sources but frankly I don't know of any of the guitar you are talking about building.

Some of your detailed questions can be answered by the group of people who really know vintage Martins - some of them come around here and could be reached by a PM, many of them frequent the vintage subforum at UMGF.

If you are trying to build a modern guitar out of sustainable woods then there are lots of things that have evolved from 1899 - string materials, bracing patterns, bridge compensation, the addition of truss rods, modern frets....... These are what I choose to build - modern versions of the great guitars from the early 20th century - roughly based on Martins and Gibsons and other instruments of that era. There are many good plans of single and double ought and various concert models that you could follow or modify to your needs.

Next, Truckjohn makes a very good point that while these were historically significant guitars they may not be the best sounding of the genre. And while I love playing my little single ought, it does not have the full modern sound that most people prefer, and I'm using modern light gauge steel strings to drive it. I think it would sound terrible with silk and steel strings (or nylon). I assume that you have played examples of what you plan to build and like that sound.

As I said before, you really cannot build a historically accurate 19th century guitar. You've recognized that our laws and ethics require that you use alternate materials and I heartily endorse that. I have some rules in my shop - I simply will not use any kind of ivory regardless of how long its been dead and my choices of woods are driven by my personal beliefs about sustainability and practices.

Lastly, I'm just going to simply say that the step from a solid body bolted neck electric guitar to an acoustic is huge. It is even bigger if you don't have plans and are trying to recreate a historic instrument. The luthier that you are working with should be advising you on what you are getting into and how you are going to perform each of the steps of your construction. Stop and think about thicknessing and joining the plates, bending the sides, cutting all the channels for binding and purfling. You want to make the bird's beak head joint - find some instructions and then consider a scarf joint instead. Are you going to do the dovetail by hand or build router jigs? How will you shape the neck and bridge? What finish will you use and how will you apply it? Will you use hide glue or modern?

Good luck, I'll enjoy watching your progress.
Author:  Marn99 [ Fri May 05, 2017 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Freeman wrote:
What John said.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what you want to build. Is it a historically correct copy of a 1899 Martin? If so you probably want either accurate plans drawn from the guitar you want to emulate or an actual guitar that you can measure. You are pretty obsessed with some of the details but you seem to be glossing over the important parameters. Good plans will have the details of purfling and rosette, but will also show critical dimensions and how it is braced. There are a few plan sets from the GAL and some other sources but frankly I don't know of any of the guitar you are talking about building.

Some of your detailed questions can be answered by the group of people who really know vintage Martins - some of them come around here and could be reached by a PM, many of them frequent the vintage subforum at UMGF.

If you are trying to build a modern guitar out of sustainable woods then there are lots of things that have evolved from 1899 - string materials, bracing patterns, bridge compensation, the addition of truss rods, modern frets....... These are what I choose to build - modern versions of the great guitars from the early 20th century - roughly based on Martins and Gibsons and other instruments of that era. There are many good plans of single and double ought and various concert models that you could follow or modify to your needs.

Next, Truckjohn makes a very good point that while these were historically significant guitars they may not be the best sounding of the genre. And while I love playing my little single ought, it does not have the full modern sound that most people prefer, and I'm using modern light gauge steel strings to drive it. I think it would sound terrible with silk and steel strings (or nylon). I assume that you have played examples of what you plan to build and like that sound.

As I said before, you really cannot build a historically accurate 19th century guitar. You've recognized that our laws and ethics require that you use alternate materials and I heartily endorse that. I have some rules in my shop - I simply will not use any kind of ivory regardless of how long its been dead and my choices of woods are driven by my personal beliefs about sustainability and practices.

Lastly, I'm just going to simply say that the step from a solid body bolted neck electric guitar to an acoustic is huge. It is even bigger if you don't have plans and are trying to recreate a historic instrument. The luthier that you are working with should be advising you on what you are getting into and how you are going to perform each of the steps of your construction. Stop and think about thicknessing and joining the plates, bending the sides, cutting all the channels for binding and purfling. You want to make the bird's beak head joint - find some instructions and then consider a scarf joint instead. Are you going to do the dovetail by hand or build router jigs? How will you shape the neck and bridge? What finish will you use and how will you apply it? Will you use hide glue or modern?

Good luck, I'll enjoy watching your progress.

I will be getting in touch with Frank Ford and Martin. I am also planning on getting the stewmac mid century spanish martin plans, which aren't exact to a single 0, but it is at least SOME reference. I will be using fish glue and hot hide glue. I have done a few hot hide glue ups before, but I plan on doing plenty of dry runs and practice my gluing technique. The bridge will be a martin pyramid style. I do have a video on the birds beak bridle joint, most of the waste removal is actually doable with a bandsaw. As for the neck, I am doing a thicker V shape, which was correct to the time period, I have hand rasped necks before (they were practice necks but still). The finish is going to be shellac based, I do have a semi gloss pseudo french polishing method that I once used on a Stanley 1874 Brazilian Rosewood tote and knob (no, I didn't ruin a pre-lateral Stanley plane, it had less than 50% of the japanning on the body and the original wood lacquer was gone), which looks stunning, I haven't decided between my own semi gloss method or a full on french polish. I am not concerned about french polishing, I am good at manual finishing and I get the hang of things like that really quickly. The dovetail is definitely going to be done by router. I will shape the headstock using Robert O'briens drill bit blank technique.
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri May 05, 2017 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Please dont neglect contacting John Arnold, John Hall, and Ken C - all members here... They have a wealth of information about old Martins.

Another person is Rob Corwin - who maintains Vintagemartin.com and antiquemartin.com He has a tremendous amout of specific information on pre-1900 gut strung Martin guitars including tracings and measurements.

Another thing to look into is Roudhloff brother's instruments... Which while not perhaps as historically significant to the development of the modern guitar, appear to predate Martin's use of the X brace... Their guitars had a good reputation for being loud and lively compared to the conventionally built guitars of the day...
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat May 06, 2017 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
"I do have a video on the birds beak bridle joint, most of the waste removal is actually doable with a bandsaw."
If you are referring to Greven's video it isn't exactly how Martin did it. Look at Frank Ford's site where he took apart an old Martin bridle joint to see the differences.
Most of the "New Yorker" Martin's used Spanish cedar for the necks. It is lighter in weight than Mahogany and a little easier to work. For gut strings that is what I would choose as a neck wood.
I had a 1-26 style Martin in pristine condition. It was built too lightly for steel strings. It didn't sound that good with nylon (gut would have worked a little better). I have built a number of size 1 guitars and they can be great sounding steel string guitars.
As people have stated some of the materials used on the old guitars are no longer readily available (BRW and Ivory for binding) so an exact replica might not be practicable. Even with modern substitutes you can make a fine little guitar.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat May 06, 2017 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
I actually one a 0-27 circa 1857 the difference is at this time the 28 had a pearl rosette
they are remarkable guitars actually . Hard to think something so small can have that much bass response.

they had ivory binding and Ivoroy rosette
the Brazillian rosewood and red spruce top. 1/4 in scallop braces
simple mop pearl dots on mine. at this stage the design wasn't set in stone as they are new york martins
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun May 07, 2017 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
If you can find the ivory you can use phosphoric acid to soften it to bend it.
Author:  Marn99 [ Sun May 07, 2017 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Clay S. wrote:
If you can find the ivory you can use phosphoric acid to soften it to bend it.

I've heard of this before, deionized water should be used as well, but I will be using ivoroid anyway. I only have one guitar that I ever plan to use ivory binding on, that is my dream 000-45, it won't be elephant, it'll be mammoth. I will probably have to scarf joint the strips together, no way on earth I will find a piece of mammoth ivory to do 2 strips per top and bottom.
Author:  Marn99 [ Mon May 08, 2017 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
I am building a one piece neck for this build, I am now considering Spanish Cedar, as I want this thing to sound like a turn of the century Martin, and without starting a debate, I would think that wood choice has at least some influence on sound. What dimensions would I need a neck blank to be (the kind of neck blank that you can harvest two necks out of)?
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon May 08, 2017 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Just a bit of advice you didnt ask for here....

If you plan on doing a nylon string build... I highly recommend you use the big post classical tuners and a spanish style tie block bridge rather than a pin bridge... Yes - I know it is not strictly "authentic"... But it will significantly reduce the chance that someone hangs medium gage steel strings on it and tears the bridge right off, warps the neck bad, or caves it in..... Because "everybody" knows that pin bridges and small steel post tuners are made for steel strings and all...

Either that or brace it up enough to at least handle standard light steel strings...
Author:  Marn99 [ Mon May 08, 2017 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
truckjohn wrote:
Just a bit of advice you didnt ask for here....

If you plan on doing a nylon string build... I highly recommend you use the big post classical tuners and a spanish style tie block bridge rather than a pin bridge... Yes - I know it is not strictly "authentic"... But it will significantly reduce the chance that someone hangs medium gage steel strings on it and tears the bridge right off, warps the neck bad, or caves it in..... Because "everybody" knows that pin bridges and small steel post tuners are made for steel strings and all...

Either that or brace it up enough to at least handle standard light steel strings...

I am doing gut strings. I am currently designing a label for the inside of this guitar, I've kept the fact that it isn't made for steel strings and the label will read "for gut strings only" on the inside. [:Y:] My last name starts with a M and ends with a N, so I might have the label read B. H. Marn & Co in Martin script.
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon May 08, 2017 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
Because people are good at reading and following instructions on labels.... ;)
Author:  Marn99 [ Mon May 08, 2017 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My next build, a replica late 19th century martin 0-28
truckjohn wrote:
Because people are good at reading and following instructions on labels.... ;)

Hey, it's better than nothing :lol: , I would at least hope that any next of kin that inherits this instrument can read an inside label :roll:
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