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Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49221		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
I'm a month or two away from needing any finish and don't have enough Mohawk Piano lacquer for another guitar. Which is the preferred brand, Cardinal, Seagraves, Mohawk or any others?
Author:  James Orr [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
I've enjoyed using Cardinal on two guitars now. I like that it cures in a week.
Author:  kencierp [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
I am/was a big fan of McFadden -- once considered the gold standard for guitar finishing. Its pretty thick so requires a little patience to match viscosity to your spray equipment. If the new owners (Seagraves) didn't change the formula I think it would be pretty hard to beat. Weird but I love the smell of the stuff, just like model airplane dope I used as a kid.
Author:  jshelton [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
James Orr wrote:
I've enjoyed using Cardinal on two guitars now. I like that it cures in a week.

That has not been my experience. I don't like it or Mohawk.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
I am a Cardinal Luthierlac fan myself. It gets pretty hard pretty fast. Very nice finish
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
jshelton wrote:
James Orr wrote:
I've enjoyed using Cardinal on two guitars now. I like that it cures in a week.

That has not been my experience. I don't like it or Mohawk.


What were your issues?
Author:  jshelton [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Clinchriver wrote:
jshelton wrote:
James Orr wrote:
I've enjoyed using Cardinal on two guitars now. I like that it cures in a week.

That has not been my experience. I don't like it or Mohawk.


What were your issues?

Cardinal took way too long to cure and Mohawk instrument lacquer seems to be very low on solids (i.e. too many coats to build). I think I've tried every brand of nitro and the only ones I really liked were Guardian (bought out by Miller and eliminated) and Valspar which is made by a local Portland, Oregon company. Miller no longer sells it so I'm stuck with Rudd which is better and cheaper than either Cardinal or Mohawk. I'm certainly no expert on which nitro is best or worst only know what works for me with my methods. Others may have a completely different experience and I respect their opinions.
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Cardinal took way too long to cure and Mohawk instrument lacquer seems to be very low on solids (i.e. too many coats to build). I think I've tried every brand of nitro and the only ones I really liked were Guardian (bought out by Miller and eliminated) and Valspar which is made by a local Portland, Oregon company. Miller no longer sells it so I'm stuck with Rudd which is better and cheaper than either Cardinal or Mohawk. I'm certainly no expert on which nitro is best or worst only know what works for me with my methods. Others may have a completely different experience and I respect their opinions.[/quote]


This? http://ruddstore.com/catalog/product_in ... ucts_id=16
Author:  klooker [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Are you unhappy with the piano lacquer of just checking what others are liking?

I want to try the piano after I run out of the stringed instrument lacquer based upon what you said in a previous thread - dries harder, more solids, can be put down heavier, ideal for buffed finishes...

Kevin Looker
Author:  Ben-Had [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
I've used Cardinal for several years now. Never takes longer than 7 days to cure and I've had gerat results, customers like the look.
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
klooker wrote:
Are you unhappy with the piano lacquer of just checking what others are liking?

I want to try the piano after I run out of the stringed instrument lacquer based upon what you said in a previous thread - dries harder, more solids, can be put down heavier, ideal for buffed finishes...

Kevin Looker



I'm very happy with the end result however this can behaved differently than the previous two and seemed to take longer to dry.
Author:  Woodie G [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Do non-instrument lacquers have the same package of plasticisers and other additives to increase flexibility and resistance to freeze checking that we see in Mohawk or in McFaddens/Seagraves instrument lacquers? Does shorter time to buff mean that some degree of sacrifice in long term performance (e.g., decades of resistance to checking/cracking)? It seems like the lacquers which set the standard for instruments (McFaddens & Mohawk) both take about three weeks (a little less in a drying box) to dry enough to do a final sand and buff, so what gets traded off for thicker/quicker application film or reduced drying time? How does Martin and Gibson avoid losing three week of production cycle time to drying the finish once applied?

It would be great if we had a finish formulation specialist around! Understanding the trade-offs involved in lacquers would be interesting, as well getting some information about the changes in formulations wrought by ever increasing demands from the EPA, CEPA, and other regulatory bodies attempting to sunset production of higher VOC finishes.
Author:  jshelton [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Clinchriver wrote:
Cardinal took way too long to cure and Mohawk instrument lacquer seems to be very low on solids (i.e. too many coats to build). I think I've tried every brand of nitro and the only ones I really liked were Guardian (bought out by Miller and eliminated) and Valspar which is made by a local Portland, Oregon company. Miller no longer sells it so I'm stuck with Rudd which is better and cheaper than either Cardinal or Mohawk. I'm certainly no expert on which nitro is best or worst only know what works for me with my methods. Others may have a completely different experience and I respect their opinions.



This? http://ruddstore.com/catalog/product_in ... ucts_id=16[/quote]
No, I'm referring to the Nitro lacquer sold by Miller. Rudd high gloss. Not claiming it's better than Cardinal but the finish seems just as hard, polishes the same and it costs about 1/3 as much.

The Mohawk instrument lacquer I used on the last 4 guitars is not even close to hard enough to polish after 3 weeks and it seems to have very low solids so you need to use more lacquer to build the proper thickness. These are simply my observations, nothing very scientific, the guitars are hanging in a warm, humidity controlled shop. I won't be using it again, it also costs more than Rudd or Valspar.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
there appears to be a lack of communication going on here.

Clinchriver is querying about a nitro lacquer...the product from Rudd is a waterborne lacquer...this is like comparing apples to oranges.

I haven't done a comparison to the cost of Cardinal products, but I can get Mohawk Piano Lacquer (which is a nice alternative to instrument lacquer as it is harder yet still has plasticizers in it) for less than the price quoted in your link.
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Mike_P wrote:
there appears to be a lack of communication going on here.

Clinchriver is querying about a nitro lacquer...the product from Rudd is a waterborne lacquer...this is like comparing apples to oranges.

I haven't done a comparison to the cost of Cardinal products, but I can get Mohawk Piano Lacquer (which is a nice alternative to instrument lacquer as it is harder yet still has plasticizers in it) for less than the price quoted in your link.

Odd. I've used it on about 30 instruments and have had very good results buffing out after 3 weeks. It is low solid compared to non instrument lacquer, but you can easily apply 8 or 10 coats a day if you choose. It is however all that is practically available in my part of the world, but I'm happy with it and so are my customers. There is no doubt that it is not FULLY cured after 3 weeks. Hard to say how long that actually takes.
This is Mohawk Instrument lacquer I'm referring to.
Author:  Rocky Road [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Are there any catalyzed or pre cat lacquers that are formulated for use on guitars?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
DannyV wrote:
Mike_P wrote:
there appears to be a lack of communication going on here.

Clinchriver is querying about a nitro lacquer...the product from Rudd is a waterborne lacquer...this is like comparing apples to oranges.

I haven't done a comparison to the cost of Cardinal products, but I can get Mohawk Piano Lacquer (which is a nice alternative to instrument lacquer as it is harder yet still has plasticizers in it) for less than the price quoted in your link.

Odd. I've used it on about 30 instruments and have had very good results buffing out after 3 weeks. It is low solid compared to non instrument lacquer, but you can easily apply 8 or 10 coats a day if you choose. It is however all that is practically available in my part of the world, but I'm happy with it and so are my customers. There is no doubt that it is not FULLY cured after 3 weeks. Hard to say how long that actually takes.
This is Mohawk Instrument lacquer I'm referring to.


what I'm referring to are the reputed differences between Mohawk Stringed Instrument Lacquer and their Piano Lacquer alternative.

I read all over the place those who moan about how modern day lacquers have too many plasticizers in them...well, Piano Lacquer seems to be a nice middle ground...years ago there appears to have been some severe issues with Piano Lacquer, and current formulations appear to have dealt with those issues...nice...

as far as solids content...from my limited viewpoint (having sprayed a mere 50 gallons or so of lacquer) this at a base view implies sprayability...e.g. thickness (as measured via a Zahn cup) out of the can vs. what is required to actually apply the product via the system one has in their hands...in other words, one most often has a spray system (gun, with its associated needle and spray cap which is coupled with a compressor with its ability to provide air) that requires reducing a lacquer out of the can to apply...simple concept in theory, yet one which must be learned (in my case the "hard way") to understand to some extent.

perhaps Brian Howard will step in and explain things with a higher degree of alacrity?
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
A mostly unexplored (on this forum) source of high quality Nitro is Sherwin Williams. Many of us have a local neighborhood store just around the corner.

I know some here have used it. Can't remember who they were but one of them could have been John Arnold. But then that could be wrong.
Author:  jshelton [ Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Joe Beaver wrote:
A mostly unexplored (on this forum) source of high quality Nitro is Sherwin Williams. Many of us have a local neighborhood store just around the corner.

I know some here have used it. Can't remember who they were but one of them could have been John Arnold. But then that could be wrong.


I tried SW high solids nitro and it works fine. It's rather annoying to level sand since it really clogs sandpaper. The cure rate is rather slow, at least four weeks before it can be polished, the last guitars I used it on took longer. I still have part of a gallon and use it mostly for drop filling. I wouldn't hesitate to use it again if I couldn't get Rudd.
Author:  mountain whimsy [ Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
klooker wrote:
Are you unhappy with the piano lacquer of just checking what others are liking?

I want to try the piano after I run out of the stringed instrument lacquer based upon what you said in a previous thread - dries harder, more solids, can be put down heavier, ideal for buffed finishes...

Kevin Looker


I sprayed the Mohawk Piano Lacquer on my last guitar. It has a much higher solids than the Behlen that I was using. Here's a shot after 4 build coats in an afternoon. I shot three more the next day and that was plenty. I didn't thin it at all. It sanded easily after about 18 hours. I was in a professional spray booth for this one, so I was working with a good gun, but it went on so easily. No runs, very little orange peel. I still need to do the final buffing, I got side tracked by a couple of other projects, but was very impressed with it. The price is much better, too.

Image

I also tried the Sherwin Williams Low VOC lacquer on a couple of guitars. I will not use it again. It sprayed well, and definitely had a much lower smell which was great. But I have never gotten it to really buff out well on either guitar. And the necks just feel strange, almost sticky. Like they have never really cured hard.

My 2 cents from an aspiring amateur.
Author:  DannyV [ Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
Mike_P wrote:
DannyV wrote:
Mike_P wrote:
there appears to be a lack of communication going on here.

Clinchriver is querying about a nitro lacquer...the product from Rudd is a waterborne lacquer...this is like comparing apples to oranges.

I haven't done a comparison to the cost of Cardinal products, but I can get Mohawk Piano Lacquer (which is a nice alternative to instrument lacquer as it is harder yet still has plasticizers in it) for less than the price quoted in your link.

Odd. I've used it on about 30 instruments and have had very good results buffing out after 3 weeks. It is low solid compared to non instrument lacquer, but you can easily apply 8 or 10 coats a day if you choose. It is however all that is practically available in my part of the world, but I'm happy with it and so are my customers. There is no doubt that it is not FULLY cured after 3 weeks. Hard to say how long that actually takes.
This is Mohawk Instrument lacquer I'm referring to.


what I'm referring to are the reputed differences between Mohawk Stringed Instrument Lacquer and their Piano Lacquer alternative.

I read all over the place those who moan about how modern day lacquers have too many plasticizers in them...well, Piano Lacquer seems to be a nice middle ground...years ago there appears to have been some severe issues with Piano Lacquer, and current formulations appear to have dealt with those issues...nice...

as far as solids content...from my limited viewpoint (having sprayed a mere 50 gallons or so of lacquer) this at a base view implies sprayability...e.g. thickness (as measured via a Zahn cup) out of the can vs. what is required to actually apply the product via the system one has in their hands...in other words, one most often has a spray system (gun, with its associated needle and spray cap which is coupled with a compressor with its ability to provide air) that requires reducing a lacquer out of the can to apply...simple concept in theory, yet one which must be learned (in my case the "hard way") to understand to some extent.

perhaps Brian Howard will step in and explain things with a higher degree of alacrity?

Hey Mike. Old blind man on small device here. I meant to quote the post above yours. I'll just sit back and stick to larger screens from now on. :lol:
Sorry Pal!
Author:  Dave m2 [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Nitrocellulose Lacquer?
I realise that many members here are in North America but this is a topic that is important for me here in the UK.I wonder what others here are using.
My searches seem to come up with only Rothko & Frost as a supplier for spraying lacquer. I have used Bolgers but they seem to have disappeared. Behlens is not available any more.

So perhaps the question is not which is best but what can we buy at all?!
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