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Need a Pickup
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49190		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Need a Pickup
Good Day! I hope you're all well. Quick question.

One of my longtime friends is getting one of my guitars for his 60th and his wife would like some electronics. My go to of late has been the Baggs Anthem, piezo/mic combo. With the Cdn-USD situation, and the fact my buddy is not that serious of a player, that one is more than he needs and I want to spend.

I'm looking for some more affordable options. Some sort of built in pre amp is a must I think. I'm really no expert but he won't want to use a DI.

I would appreciate some options.

Thanks,
Danny
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Hey Danny - When it's a great sounding instrument, naturally, as I am sure your creations most certainly are I like to recommend the Lyric if the Anthem is too pricy. We've installed dozens of them and the only down side is since it's a mic if you sit right in front of the amp or a big arse monitor it can feed back. But so too does the Anthem.

My rule of thumb is if it's a great sounding guitar the Lyric or Anthem are my first choices.

Dave's been more of a K&K fan lately but me I'm trying to play less golf these days.... ;)
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Hesh wrote:
Hey Danny - When it's a great sounding instrument, naturally, as I am sure your creations most certainly are I like to recommend the Lyric if the Anthem is too pricy. We've installed dozens of them and the only down side is since it's a mic if you sit right in front of the amp or a big arse monitor it can feed back. But so too does the Anthem.

My rule of thumb is if it's a great sounding guitar the Lyric or Anthem are my first choices.

Dave's been more of a K&K fan lately but me I'm trying to play less golf these days.... ;)

Thanks Brother, Less golf? Am I a little thick? haha

I have used a Lyric and was happy with it. This is in fact one of my better sounding guitars. It has given me serious pause for thought on Wenge, as a tone wood. Or maybe I just got lucky. :lol:

I did fail to mention that my buddy is a first position strummer. With a flat pick. I THINK he will likely plug it in a couple times a year.

Which K&K is Dave liking? I've used a couple and as long as you don't tap the soundboard they seem to work well.

Thanks Man!
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Also. I know the Lyric is active, which is good. Are all K&K's passive? Do they require a DI?
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Hey Danny - The golf reference is to how K&K sends you a white golf tee as part of how they are installed, always seemed kind of cheesy to me...:)

I ask Dave to weigh in so he's represented correctly.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
The K&K Pure Mini is the one I have installed in a number of acoustics including my own. I run mine through a preamp into the sound system; I used the K&K Pure XLR for about 6 years and it works good but last year I moved to the Fire-Eye Red-Eye twin so I can easily switch between two guitars. A preamp isn't always needed as the K&K generally has enough output to directly drive an acoustic amp or a direct box for a sound system.
Author:  Robert Lak [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
I just installed the K&K Pure mini (about a month ago) on my own build and have been really pleased with it. Not a serious player myself and I am not disappointed with the lack of controls. I got exactly what I had hoped for, amplified natural sound.
Author:  mountain whimsy [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
One more vote for the Pure Mini. It's the go to around my neck of the woods. I usually run it through a pre-amp, but have had plenty of success directly into an acoustic amp or mixing board. It allows you to get a good pickup in the guitar, and if you want to later down the road, invest in a pre-amp.

I also use the Anthem, but for simplicity, I do prefer the Pure Mini.
Author:  Ben-Had [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
I have installed hundreds of the K&K pure minis. The pro players I have built for or installed for rave about it. Most of the pros use a LR Baggs Para DI depending on the venue. It is my recommended PU.
Author:  kencierp [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
I am a fan of JJB Electronics reviews compare favorably to K&K which it pretty much clones at half the price -- made in Michigan, Jesse (nice guy) will work with you on custom configurations.

http://jjb-electronics.com/prestige-330.html
Author:  rlrhett [ Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Another K&K/JJB fan. No you don't need a preamp for either. Not that one isn't nice to add to your signal chain.
Author:  Josh H [ Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
I'm a big K&K fan. I sent you a PM Danny.

Just a heads up for any other Canadian who are interested, I have a bunch of K&K systems in stock and will have them up for sale on my website soon. PM me in the meantime if you are interested.
Author:  TRein [ Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Even if you put sound quality aside, (and I'm not a fan of K&K's sound), the superglue mounting method is bogus. Guitar players can be a fickle lot and they often change pickups as the latest one comes along. I've never had any luck trying to pry off the transducers from the bridge plate. Let's see: working blind with your wrist in a contorted position through the sound hole and wielding a single blade razor. What could possibly go wrong?
Author:  kencierp [ Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Oh yeah -- that reminds me, Jesse at JJB offer a super thin semi ridgid double sided tape said to deliver very good fidelity.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Hey Danny - Asked Dave and he's more of a K&K fan and one of the reasons is pretty interesting as well. Because the Lyric and Anthem have such a great mic they tend to reproduce the sound of an acoustic guitar pretty accurately....

Some of the guitars that we've put them in sound like a turd.... and with the Lyric you get an amplified turd.... ;)

Conversely if it's a great guitar a Lyric or Anthem can sound great too.

Just did a Lowden with a Lyric a few days ago and it sounded great.

Dave is a K&K fan these days.
Author:  kencierp [ Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
The OP sounded like a budget issue but if that is not the case I certainly would agree that the Lyric would be a good choice. To my ear these are able to produce a more natural output when compared to any type piezo element.
Author:  doncaparker [ Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
I'm in the Lyric camp. For me, a Lyric through a Venue preamp is a very effective choice, if you assume that a pickup is needed.

I just want to offer a combination of thoughts that lead to what I think is a better alternative for a lot of folks:

1. As good as we can make pickups sound, an external mic has much better tone than a pickup.

2. There are external mics these days that really do a great job of capturing the tone of an acoustic guitar in a live setting without it being a feedback nightmare. I am particularly fond of the Ear Trumpet Labs mics.

3. An internal pickup is the necessary choice if an acoustic guitar is being played in a band with a loud backline (drums and electric guitar and bass amps), but if it is an all acoustic gig, both pickups and mics would work fine from a feedback control standpoint.

4. Due to good marketing and hero worship among players, a whole lot of acoustic players think they need to use a pickup in every live context, no matter what. But they really don't. A mic would work in many live contexts.

5. Because of all of the above, I feel like we have tolerated (and grown to expect) a less pleasing acoustic guitar sound in many live contexts than we could have.

My ultimate point is that I think it is a good thing to question the assumption that many customers bring to the table: the assumption that, if they are going to play live, then they need a pickup. I play live in some loud places, and I use a mic. It sounds far better to me than any pickup, including my preferred Lyric through a Venue. If the customer wants a pickup, then install a pickup, but I think a preliminary conversation about the virtues of trying a mic (the RIGHT mic) instead of a pickup is a good thing.

Sorry for the long post. I'm on a bit of a mission to nudge folks away from pickups unless they are really necessary. Mics just sound better (my opinion).
Author:  Woodie G [ Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
If a preamp is considered a necessity, one option for K&K diehards is the recent revision to the K&K UltraPure system, which provides a soundhole-mounted three band equalizer, volume slider, phase, and battery status light with the existing Pure. We've been installing these for a few months. The UltraPure system uses the same Pure soundboard-mounted sensors as the passive pickup, so has the disadvantage of greater sensitivity to body noise than the Anthem or other similar systems.

https://reverb.com/item/520275-k-k-sound-ultra-pure-classic-nylon-guitar-pickup-w-preamp-gold-strap-button?gclid=COKd7fDjgNMCFcaPswod4zwJ9Q&pla=1

We have installed a half dozen of these - either as a retrofit of the preamp alone or as full systems, and solo players appear to like the fidelity of the system. The only 'take it out!' was a customer attempting to use the system to front a band in cramped venues - we recommended another system, but he wanted to try the K&K based on recommendations from another player. The UltraPure preamp is available separately for about $120 or with the Pure for about $200.

In terms of pricing in USD, an internal preamp with single source pickup will run at least $150 (Fishman Matrix Infinity, Baggs Element), while the single source UltraPure will run $200. The Baggs dual source Anthem SL lacks control of mic/UST mix or phase, but is priced $100 less than the standard Anthem ($300).

If price is the driver for the decision, the Fishman is the lowest priced single source active package, but also the least accurate in terms of sound reproduction (although it works well for noisy venues/band settings). You could also install a JJB Prestige 330 ($50) or K&K Pure ($100) and see how he likes it...add an UltraPure internal preamp or simple external preamp like the K&K external Pure ($100) or JJB J2 ($119) if it is really necessary.
Author:  DannyV [ Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
I thank you all for your helpful info info. I am a fan of Baggs. The Anthem (I have one going in in a couple of days) has been my go to but is now pushing $400 CDN!!! And I know the Lyric well and have been very happy with the couple I have used. I don't THINK they sounded like turds Hesh. But my ears are getting old. haha

I spoke with Jesse at JJB. Great guy and it would appear to be comparable to K&K. I am price shopping. I'm thinking this guitar will be plugged in a few times a year with likely a few beers under the belt and likely more in the people listening. Not what you would call a discerning crowd with respect to guitar tone. At that price point I'm in!

Thanks again!
Author:  peter.coombe [ Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Quote:
Due to good marketing and hero worship among players, a whole lot of acoustic players think they need to use a pickup in every live context, no matter what. But they really don't. A mic would work in many live contexts.


This is one of my beefs, especially when an obvious beginner demands a pickup. I have played in various bands for over 30 years and have never ever used a pickup. I now use a Rode M3 condenser microphone for my mandolin and accordion and get great results. Dragged kicking and screaming by the players who want a pickup, I now install a McIntyre feather in all my guitars, and don't install a pickup in my mandolins unless I get my arm twisted. I refuse to install any sort of electronics because the guitar or mandolin will last far longer than any electronics that will either fail or become obsolete during the life of the instrument, and will need to be replaced. The McIntyre sounds good and is easily reversed, which is one of my essential requirements for a pickup, so forget about K&K and superglue. I try not to say this to customers, but have to bite my tongue sometimes, but - for goodness sake you have bought a high end ACOUSTIC guitar or mandolin that sounds great, don't ruin it by using a pickup! NO pickup sounds like a high quality microphone. Even the good pickups loose much of the acoustic details, the acoustic ambience is lost. Granted, in some circumstances a pickup is useful when noise levels from other instruments are very high and feedback becomes a problem at high gain with a microphone, but I play with fiddles, accordians and piano and have never felt the need. I have a bag containing a small mic stand, the Rode mic and a lead and just plug the lead into the PA at every gig. It can use phantom power or a battery so will work under all circumstances. The sound guys usually appreciate a high quality mic.
Author:  Haans [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
THANK YOU, PETER!
Author:  Dave Baley [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Due to concerns about the superglue issue, I have had a few conversations with folks regarding mounting the K&K with HHG. I haven't had a chance to experiment with it yet but I think it has potential.
Dave
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Woodie G wrote:
The Baggs dual source Anthem SL lacks control of mic/UST mix or phase, but is priced $100 less than the standard Anthem ($300).


On of the things I loved about the Santa Barbara show was getting a chance to audition the different Baggs systems. I came home with the SL. The mic to under saddle ratio actually is adjustable, but it's not as convenient of an adjustment as the Anthem system.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  apostleguitarcompany [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
Would something like this be suitable to attach the JJB/ K&K?

https://www.amazon.com/Intertape-Polymer-Group-9970-1-88-Inches/dp/B000I1EHK0/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1491159035&sr=8-8&keywords=two+sided+thin+adhesive+tape

Seems like it would work, or maybe some other type of adhesive tape. Would tape really dampen the sound that much?
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a Pickup
apostleguitarcompany wrote:
Would something like this be suitable to attach the JJB/ K&K?

https://www.amazon.com/Intertape-Polymer-Group-9970-1-88-Inches/dp/B000I1EHK0/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1491159035&sr=8-8&keywords=two+sided+thin+adhesive+tape

Seems like it would work, or maybe some other type of adhesive tape. Would tape really dampen the sound that much?

Likely a little on the heavy side Garret. I do have some very thin stuff I got from Lee Valley. The comments an using CA is making me ponder. It's what I have used in the past but I can see where it could become problematic.
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