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Getting Better with Bindings
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Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Getting Better with Bindings
I've got my method that I have been using for 25 years now but it's one of those things that has always had room for improvement. Sometimes it's perfect other times not so much, so that's the problem, consistency. I finally made my self a binding machine, something very similar to the Canadian Luthier Supply binding jig, so cutting the rabbets are not really the problem anymore.

The problem I struggle with every time is getting the binding lengths right. I use a scarf joint at the heal block and a butt joint at the neck. I do a dry run and tape up the binding real tight all the way round and mark off the end. Then I slip a hardwood veneer, usually a side cut off or something like that, under the binding while it's still in place and cut the joint with a razor saw and trim it with a chisel.

But too many time's when I start to rope up the binding and get to the end it's either too long or too short. I always make the rabbets a bit deeper then necessary to accommodate the glue swelling and so I'm wondering if when tightening the ropes up that has something to do with it. If you make them deeper too, how much deeper?

As I am about to bind my 53rd guitar I thought I would seek out a method that might be better. Maybe that's just the way you do it but I aint' doin' it good...
Author:  Imbler [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
I use the CA method, so when your bindings are taped up and pared for the butt joint at the neck, they don't move, they just get glued,
Mike
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
I don't cut the neck end until I am at the mid point of the upper bout. So that might neutralize some of the swelling, but I can't imagine it's more than a couple thou anyways. It's always awkward and a little nerve racking cutting that binding. Of course I always do the top one first and quickly to see how cool I am before I do the money cut!
Author:  JoeM [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
Imbler wrote:
I use the CA method, so when your bindings are taped up and pared for the butt joint at the neck, they don't move, they just get glued,
Mike


What is the "CA Method"? Sounds like the bindings are positioned dry and then CA glue is wicked onto the joint?

Wouldn't that tend to clue the tape/rope/whatever is holding the binding to the guitar too?

I have a second guitar that I need to bind, with wood this time instead of plastic. The first one was a sticky mess getting the adhesive in place (I was doing purflings at the same time), but it cleaned up OK. I'd like to feel like I had a little better control of the process.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
JoeM wrote:
Imbler wrote:
I'd like to feel like I had a little better control of the process.


+1

I'd like to hear more from folks who use CA here too. I think CA would especially help with miters where the alignment is critical and stressful as I'll get out. Taping everything down and dabbing some CA sounds like a good idea. I'm guessing you tape it all up leaving small gaps between the tape, tack it in the gaps, then remove the tape and apply a full run of CA?
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
bcombs510 wrote:
JoeM wrote:
Imbler wrote:
I'd like to feel like I had a little better control of the process.

... I'm guessing you tape it all up leaving small gaps between the tape, tack it in the gaps, then remove the tape and apply a full run of CA?


That is pretty much how I do it.
Author:  johnparchem [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
I have found that CA on miters when using light binding leaves a dark glue line. Has anyone addressed this issue. I have had no problem with the rest of the binding using CA. To avoid a mess, the tape is spaced and I put the CA in between the tape. I still manage to glue some of the tape down, but it is not a big deal.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
I have done the CA method once in the past. I actually did it on a guitar that I built almost entirely using CA as an experiment. It worked brilliantly really. In fact it really was the easiest binding I have ever done. But I worry about as John mentioned, darkening lines, and also the thin stuff dripping all over the inside of the guitar. Also the wood bindings have to be a super perfect fit and this guitar has a real tight waist and no matter how hard I tried I just cannot get it to fit without the extra clamping strength of rope. I suppose I could revisit it. But if you have exposed holes between kerfed linings for example then thin CA could be a disaster on the inside of the guitar. And I do know you are supposed to shellac the channel.

I also have an idea in my head that the binding, especially for this guitar with wide binding and wide purfling, that the binding is a sort of structural joint for the top. The CA method to me appears to just be a 'hold it in place' type job instead of structural. I might be off on this thinking but none the less. I would definitely use CA again if I had no holes in the linings and it was a simple binding scheme. I may also be convinced that CA is perfectly fine in any scheme ;)
Author:  Imbler [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
johnparchem wrote:
I have found that CA on miters when using light binding leaves a dark glue line. Has anyone addressed this issue. I have had no problem with the rest of the binding using CA. To avoid a mess, the tape is spaced and I put the CA in between the tape. I still manage to glue some of the tape down, but it is not a big deal.

John, I use the clear reinforced packing tape which doesn't get glued down even if glue runs under it. I've only used EIR bindings, so I can't address the dark glue line other than to ask if you are shellacing the end grain of the miters?
Mike
Author:  Imbler [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
jfmckenna wrote:
I have done the CA method once in the past. I actually did it on a guitar that I built almost entirely using CA as an experiment. It worked brilliantly really. In fact it really was the easiest binding I have ever done. But I worry about as John mentioned, darkening lines, and also the thin stuff dripping all over the inside of the guitar. Also the wood bindings have to be a super perfect fit and this guitar has a real tight waist and no matter how hard I tried I just cannot get it to fit without the extra clamping strength of rope. I suppose I could revisit it. But if you have exposed holes between kerfed linings for example then thin CA could be a disaster on the inside of the guitar. And I do know you are supposed to shellac the channel.

I also have an idea in my head that the binding, especially for this guitar with wide binding and wide purfling, that the binding is a sort of structural joint for the top. The CA method to me appears to just be a 'hold it in place' type job instead of structural. I might be off on this thinking but none the less. I would definitely use CA again if I had no holes in the linings and it was a simple binding scheme. I may also be convinced that CA is perfectly fine in any scheme ;)


I actually seal up the kerfing with fish glue to prevent any errant ca from running down the inside of the guitar, but I'm guessing that wouldn't appeal to a lot of builders! I don't mind the look (just looks like it is shellaced, but doesn't look like bare wood.

As for the super fit, I tape in place, but press in and down with a caul at the place where I am tacking with CA. That gets things tighter than roping could,

As Alan Carruth says: "When there are many methods to accomplish a task, either they all work or none of them do!" :)
Mike
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
johnparchem wrote:
I have found that CA on miters when using light binding leaves a dark glue line. Has anyone addressed this issue. I have had no problem with the rest of the binding using CA. To avoid a mess, the tape is spaced and I put the CA in between the tape. I still manage to glue some of the tape down, but it is not a big deal.


Yes, it does. I use CA also, pretty much as others discribed, a dab between the tape then fully after the tape is off, but I always use a dab of Elmer's white glue on the ends of the binding and graft where it butts up to the binding. Use to use LMI White but then they changed it. I haven't try their new stuff.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
Joe Beaver wrote:
johnparchem wrote:
I have found that CA on miters when using light binding leaves a dark glue line. Has anyone addressed this issue. I have had no problem with the rest of the binding using CA. To avoid a mess, the tape is spaced and I put the CA in between the tape. I still manage to glue some of the tape down, but it is not a big deal.


Yes, it does. I use CA also, pretty much as others discribed, a dab between the tape then fully after the tape is off, but I always use a dab of Elmer's white glue on the ends of the binding and graft where it butts up to the binding. Use to use LMI White but then they changed it. I haven't try their new stuff.


I'm giving the LMI Yellow stuff a go for the first time on this guitar. It's kind of different then TB but seems to work well enough.
Author:  JoeM [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
The next guitar I build I'm going to try solid / laminated linings, so dripping into the inside shouldn't be an issue. And if I shellac the binding channel and top edge of the soundboard that should keep the CA from wicking into the top and interfering with any dye finish I want to try.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
Imbler wrote:

I actually seal up the kerfing with fish glue to prevent any errant ca from running down the inside of the guitar, but I'm guessing that wouldn't appeal to a lot of builders! I don't mind the look (just looks like it is shellaced, but doesn't look like bare wood.


I might have a problem with this practice. Fish glue, while fairly safe in a joint, where it's protected from moisture, is reasonably safe as a glue, but applied as a sealer on the surface of linings, inside a guitar, that properly cared for, will have a humidifier hanging inside during the winter months, seems to give me pause. The fish glue is going to soak up a great deal of that moisture and become gummy over a period of time, due to it's hygroscopic(?) tendencies. Maybe I'm all wet, though! idunno
Author:  Imbler [ Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
WaddyThomson wrote:
Imbler wrote:

I actually seal up the kerfing with fish glue to prevent any errant ca from running down the inside of the guitar, but I'm guessing that wouldn't appeal to a lot of builders! I don't mind the look (just looks like it is shellaced, but doesn't look like bare wood.


I might have a problem with this practice. Fish glue, while fairly safe in a joint, where it's protected from moisture, is reasonably safe as a glue, but applied as a sealer on the surface of linings, inside a guitar, that properly cared for, will have a humidifier hanging inside during the winter months, seems to give me pause. The fish glue is going to soak up a great deal of that moisture and become gummy over a period of time, due to it's hygroscopic(?) tendencies. Maybe I'm all wet, though! idunno


Hasn't been a problem for me over the last 7 years of building guitars. It is all I use other than ca for bindings so that is why I used it to seal the bindings. And it gets pretty humid in KS in the summer, but there are more humid areas of course. Any high viscosity glue would work, of course like the pva white glues,
Mike
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
I use thin CA, I don't seal kerfed linings and I haven't had any issues with glue running down the inside. I'm guessing but I suppose the amount of CA I put on is probably held in the joint by surface tension
Author:  MikeWaz [ Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
Joe Beaver wrote:
..but I always use a dab of Elmer's white glue on the ends of the binding and graft where it butts up to the binding.


I find this works very well. The water based glue swells the end grain. Besides helping with CA discoloring, it also helps minimize micro gaps. I first dab a little white glue, then a little CA to secure it in place.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
As far as getting the length right at the neck joint you can glue up to within a few inches of the joint and use this technique. It has made things easier for me.

http://kennedyguitars.com/binding-cutting-aid.html

I have never used ca except to tack down miters and love it for that.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
An interesting point on bindings and gluing the joint. In Bogdanovich's DVD, he says not to glue the joint line, as it makes a dark line. So he just glues the binding in the channel, and does not glue the actual joint. Same with mitered purfling joints where side purfs intersect with the tail piece, etc. He just buts them up, glued in place everywhere except the actual joint itself.
Author:  Woodie G [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
Like Mr. Macaluso, we cut the neck end of the back binding during the glue-up, unless we are using CA (which is usually reserved for either very complex schemes with a bunch of miters or for plastic). For fish or hide glue-ups, we use strapping tape to hold things together until the binding is on, then the long Stewart MacDonald rubber bands and a plywood base with deck screw anchor points every inch to apply constant pressure in and down on binding and purflings while the glue dries. The rubber bands do an amazing job on pulling in the upper bout back bindings, as well as Florentine back binding in the cutaway.

For CA work, we seal all hardwood with a coat of 1 lb cut spray shellac, and two coats on spruce, redwood, and cedar...this avoids the problem of the end grain in miters darkening on maple or ash binding. We usually apply a misted coat on the entire binding strip and channel, let fully dry, then tack in with thin CA in fine tip disposable 1.5ml disposable transfer pipettes. GluBoost accelerator does a wonderful job here, and once the trick is learned on how to get a very light mist from the can, not too expensive. On plastic bindings, we always butter any miter or butt joint with a dollop of dissolved binding and wait at least a day before final scrape and sand to allow the paste to fully set up... joints in cellulose nitrate disappear with this treatment.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
Terence Kennedy wrote:
As far as getting the length right at the neck joint you can glue up to within a few inches of the joint and use this technique. It has made things easier for me.

http://kennedyguitars.com/binding-cutting-aid.html

I have never used ca except to tack down miters and love it for that.


Brilliant! Thank you. I will definitely be making one of those simple jigs.

---

But suffice to say I've already done this one. I used the CA method though I routed for a glue method. So with no expansion of the wood I now have some scraping to do. The ends didn't come out to bad but some how I made an idiot mistake and along a 3in section the binding purfling line has a gap from the bottom of the binding to the sides. Darn it. If this guitar was not for me I'd rout it off and do it again, I still might but for now I'll just fill it.

I hate making rookie mistakes. I swear binding is jut one of those things I'll never really get right.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
There was some interest in what my binding machine jig looks like so I'll post a pic here. It's a very simle set up that works better then anything I have tried so far and it has a very small foot print. As mentioned I stole, er um borrowed, the idea from the Canadian Luthier Supply jig.

Image

Image
Author:  bcombs510 [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
The pics are not loading for me?
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
I can't see them either.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Better with Bindings
Sorry, perhaps now?
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