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| Old Brown Glue http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48887 |
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Old Brown Glue |
Here is the website of the guy who makes Old Brown Glue. He discusses Hot Hide, Old Brown, Fish, and Rabbit Skin glues and talks about how his glue is the same as HHG. He makes it in his kitchen - really. See the article in the latest Popular Woodworking. Here is the site: http://wpatrickedwards.blogspot.com/2017/01/got-glue.html Most of the way down the page he talks about a mysterious guitar maker who uses his glue and doesn't wnt him to use their name. He links to a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1H5S_lZUFg And you see that it is - - Gibson. At the 2 minute mark they show the glue Why isn't this a good glue for guitars? Ed |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
Ed-- I use hot hide glue exclusively for anything that stays on the guitar. In other words, I might use Titebond or Superglue for a jig or fixture (out of convenience), but I only use hot hide glue for guitar parts. I am a hobbyist, so I can get away with making that choice in terms of how I spend my time. Anyway, I agree that Old Brown Glue is fine for guitars, with some qualifiers. First, let's agree on what Old Brown Glue is. Is is simply hot hide glue with urea added to make it "sort of" liquid at room temperature. Well, I use some urea every so often in my own hot hide glue, so I see nothing inherently wrong with Old Brown Glue. I think it is important to heat it up a bit, and not rely on it to work at room temperature just like Titebond. That is to say: I think it works better as a glue if it is slightly warmed up. You can see in the video that Gibson is soaking the bottles in a warm water bath. I would do the same thing. I think Old Brown Glue has that recommendation on the bottle. I also think it is super important to work with a fresh batch of glue. This is why I would rather make my own, and put urea in it myself, than buy Old Brown Glue. If it is old, and won't stick because it is old, that is a lot of wasted money and time. I can make it myself fresh, add the urea, and be ahead of the game. So, I like what is in the product more than I like the product itself, if that makes any sense. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
I use it for box closing, but regular HHG for everything else. Probably would be good for bindings, too. Less fighting to keep it warm while getting all the tape on nice and tight. Sometimes the OBG squeeze-out turns rubbery and refuses to dry, which is why a lot of people have disliked it. But it's just a waterproof surface film that keeps it from drying out. I've found that if you reheat the squeeze-out, the water will escape and it dries hard like normal HHG. Presumably, an actual glue line is thin enough that it should dry completely in a reasonable amount of time even when cool. But it does seem like a good idea to keep it at least fairly warm. I need to do a bond strength test between a cold joint, a medium one, and a hot one. Maybe one set with half hour dry time, and one overnight. Find out if it's actually ok to use like Titebond or not. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
I didn't realize that's been around for 20 years. I was gonna say the reason why it has not caught on is because it has not been time test, that may be false but perhaps not in the luthrie community. But the thing is I can get Titebond at my local hardware store. It's cheap, time tested, proven, easy to use, cleans up well etc... They claim a shelf life of 18 months which is pretty darn good. You can also refrigerate or freeze it. Try it and let us know 
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
A few more thoughts to flesh out what I said above: 1. One of the cool things about hot hide glue is that you can mess with the mixture to suit your purpose at the time. If runny glue is what you need, go on the high end of the water to dry glue ratio (up to 2 to 1 by weight). If you want it to be a bit thicker so it doesn't run everywhere, go on the low end of the ratio (1.7 to 1 by weight). If you only need a little bit of extra working time, add urea at less than 5% of the dry glue weight. If you need it to stay fully liquid at room temperature, add urea at around 20% of the dry glue weight. You can't do that with a bottled product. It comes the way it comes. You can add water to thin it out; that's about it. 2. Compared to mixing your own, Old Brown Glue is kind of expensive. 3. You never have to worry about freshness when you mix it yourself. 4. If you have to give it a warm bath to get it to work at its best, you might as well be cooking fresh hot hide glue. I'm not trying to knock the product; I just see larger benefits from making it yourself. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
I tried it for the same reasons one might guess. I didn't use it on a guitar though. When I was done, I left a little bit in the container I had used to dip the brush in when spreading the glue. I left it in there, and it dried. I found it about a week later. The stuff was like rubber in consistency. It would bend and mold in your hand and bend easily without breaking. If you leave HHG in a little tub and let it dry, when you try to chip it out or pull it out, it breaks like glass. I know that's not very scientific, but I would never use it on a guitar. Could have been a bad batch. Who knows? But, not for me. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
The one advantage Old Brown Glue seems to have over traditional hot hide glue is longer open time, but with a heat gun for closing bodies or binding (apply two coats of hide to the lining and side, close, then heat), or pre-warming the bridge or fretboard with a plate warmer, there's little issue with using hide for those operations. Also - it would seem that both Franklin's liquid hide glue and Old Brown Glue are both hide with additives to depress gel temperature, so not sure what would justify the additional cost seen with the Old Brown Glue |
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| Author: | Elman Concepcion [ Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
What Waddy said. I don't think it is worth the risk. I brought up the "glue stays rubbery issue" with the manufacturer years ago explaining that I was making guitars and could not afford any creeping and he just pointed me to some tests that some mag had done demonstrating that the glue joint was stronger than the wood. However those test were done on static pieces of wood and not on joints under permanent tension as in guitars. I actually don't think he understood what creeping was in the context of what we do. I think OBG is fine for furniture but not for guitars. Stick ( ha ha ) to HHG and if you need extra working time just add 10% common salt to your fresh HHG granules by weight. BTW - HHG with 10% salt added, dries exactly the same as HHG with out the salt  i.e. like glass.
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
In my experience anything hot hide glue can do fish glue can do slower. When I want longer open time I use fish glue. Titebond Original also works well and, because I've used it for decades, it's predictable for me. Adding salt or urea to HHG is an option that I see works well for some people. The urea option creates a glue with a shelf life issue. There are ways to solve that problem, but I have enough problems without that. I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for hide glue someone else has added urea to, even if they call it old. YMMV. |
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| Author: | DanSavage [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
I'm in the minority, here. I've used OBG to re-top 5 different guitars and it works great. (jointing and braces) Dried hard, not rubbery. These guitars get played every day with no creeping issues. I'm working on 4 more right now using OBG. |
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| Author: | JoeM [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
I've used OBG on several furniture projects, never has any issues. I've been using TItebond III on my first (and second) guitar project, but am thinking about using OBG for the dovetail neck joint in case someone needs to take it apart in the future. How would you devise a test for glue strength appropriate for guitars? |
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| Author: | JoeM [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
JoeM wrote: How would you devise a test for glue strength appropriate for guitars? Just Google it Joe Several interesting points in the articles below, but the consensus seem to be I need to get my glue pot back out when I build my next guitar.http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier ... etest.html http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue.html http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-hardness.html 
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
JoeM wrote: I've used OBG on several furniture projects, never has any issues. I've been using TItebond III on my first (and second) guitar project, but am thinking about using OBG for the dovetail neck joint in case someone needs to take it apart in the future. How would you devise a test for glue strength appropriate for guitars? Titebond original is not difficult to steam out either. I typically use Fish for dovetails. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
Just a little piece of data that may be of some relevance to somebody: I needed some hot hide glue with a longer gel time, so I made some fresh and put in urea at 30% of the weight of the dry glue, which I believe is the ratio Old Brown Glue uses (I can't swear to it, but I think that is what I heard somewhere). My fresh glue has that familiar, pleasant smell. I like it; maybe others don't. I had some expired Old Brown Glue in my cabinet, so I warmed up a comparable amount, just to see what it was like in comparison to my own mix. I have to say, it smells more "hairy" and "gamey" than my fresh glue. It could be that it was just old and spoiled (although it was not moldy). It could be that there is something about the hide glue that Old Brown Glue uses that is of a rougher texture. All I know is that I did not like the smell at all. For the reasons I stated above, I'm sticking with my fresh hot hide glue, and adding urea whenever it is needed. I know what's in it, I know how it acts, and I like how it smells. |
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| Author: | Bri [ Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old Brown Glue |
Old brown glue....? Pretty sure that is an old Beatles song. Sorry, couldn't help myself. B |
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