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Tips and tricks
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48770		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  cessnageek [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Tips and tricks
Hi,
So I am planning on building a guitar this summer, and was wondering what tips vet luthiers have for me. I am going to build an acoustic, and have a full shop at my disposal. Any advice from where to buy the wood to how to avoid common problems is appreciated!
Thanks!
Author:  johnparchem [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
My first tip would be go through the index and read through the blogs of other who have built their first guitars. This site has a number of wood providers in the sponsors page. I have used many of them and have had great results.
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Here's one that's probably irrelevant at this point, but was on my mind because I used it again just now :) Method to clamp a pointy cutaway and make sure the miter is pulled tight together. Round over the corner just a bit so it's not sharp, and then stick 3 strips of tape on it to form a hinge, where they're pulled tight when the joint is closed.
Attachment:
CutawayTape.jpg

Also works on tail seams, if you want to do one without a tail inlay. Glue one rib to the tail block, let it dry, then glue the other with tightly stretched tape to pull it together. The joints themselves are done simply by dragging on sandpaper and eyeballing.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Welcome Ryley! Sign up for the Classifieds! It costs $11.88 for a year, and right now there are some nice maple back and side sets at a good price. There's always some interesting stuff for sale!

Alex
Author:  cessnageek [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Awesome. Thanks for the replies so soon! I want to do a cutaway, but since this is my first, I think I'll stick to no cutaway. There will be many more to come though :) I'll have to check out that classifieds thing. Another question is how much can I expect to spend on a decent set of sides and backs? They don't have to be extraordinarily fancy, but I'm looking to make a guitar I can play and be proud of, so what's a good ballpark range to be looking at?
Thanks,
-Ryley
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Ryley..... I built my first guitar, total scratch. It included a cut away.

I think the best "tip" I can give you would be to read everything you can before starting..... I think I read for almost 8 months before I started (mind you that was in 2003, before most internet forums). There are so many tutorials, videos and blogs out there, it's almost "easy" to build a first guitar now....

Material cost can certainly vary depending on quality and species, (back & sides $100-$350, Top $30-$250, Neck $20-$150, brace stock $15-$30, truss rod $25, tuners $50-$200, frets $10-30, inlay material $10-$100, bridge & finger board $30-$100, finishing $15 and lots of elbow grease or up to $450).....then there's a case, possible electronics.....

There are certainly some specific tools you'd need like some type of saw to cut the fret slots in the finger board, routers and specific bits are very handy as well as some basic jigging....

All in all it's safe to bet that you'll be into it for a minimum of $600 for average/good quality material alone, plus I'd say another $100-$300 for tooling......
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
For materials, our sponsor Hibdon has a great deal on beginner sets right now http://www.hibdonhardwood.com/collections/music-specials/products/beginners-all-in-one-guitar-practice-set

They're also my main source for neck blanks, so if you're planning multiple guitars, you might as well stock up to save on shipping. My favorites are walnut and cherry. I buy the 1x3x24" blanks, which make the neck shaft+scarf jointed headstock. Then buy lumber locally to make the heel out of, since that doesn't need to be perfect like the neck shaft, and local is cheaper.

Another nice thing about hoarding neck blanks is that you can store them in a non-humidity controlled area and monitor them for movement as the seasons change. I like to be sure that I'm using perfectly stable wood for the neck and fingerboard. Particularly no twisting.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Understand and implement a proper RH (humidity) situation for where you are....

Before any tonewood or tools need to be purchased or used if you don't have your RH (relative humidity) in an acceptable range (42 - 48% is a good range for many locations, not all) you may experience some avoidable set-backs. Simply determining RH accurately may be more involved than you might think....

My tip two and often job one when helping new builders is to instill the sense that ultimately a guitar is a tool for a musician. You can approach it as a woodworking project, art, platform for innovation, or compensation from something else but again ultimately a decent guitar is a tool for a musician. This means that how it plays, set-up skills, nut making, fretting, neck angle, action, scale length, intonation are to folks who work in the trade FAR more important than a pretty rosette.

Welcome to the forum.
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
A few tips:

1. I agree with the advice to read everything you can before you start, but once it is time to start, you should probably pick a specific resource and follow it pretty closely (mostly ignoring the other resources) until you finish the first guitar. Mixing and matching building techniques can get you stuck in some mistakes if you are not careful. Eventually, mixing and matching techniques is what we all do to build what we think are better guitars than we built before, but you have to start somewhere.

2. As a guide to making the first guitar, I still think the Cumpiano and Natelson book, supplemented with updates from Cumpiano available online, is the best starting place. But, there are others, and other folks may recommend their favorites.

3. Consider a high quality kit for your first guitar. I built from scratch the first time out, but in retrospect, a kit might have eased me into things better. It just depends on your goals. There are kits available from several of the sponsors of this forum.

4. Be comfortable with the idea that you will not build a perfect guitar the first time out. Mistakes will happen. Sometimes it will be something you can live with; other times, it will be better to scrap the part and buy or cut a new one. Figuring out which of those two is better is a case by case assessment.

5. Walk before you run. You already have a handle on this one. Keep the design less complicated this first time, then stretch out on later guitars. Specifics: Don't do a cutaway; don't do any pearl inlays other than the headstock or maybe the rosette; don't do a fancy segmented rosette; don't try to invent the perfect neck joint; use Titebond instead of hot hide glue (that's a hard one for me, because I love HHG); just generally make modest choices. This will get you to the end of the road faster the first time out.

Good luck! It is a wonderful hobby. This forum is populated by mostly very nice, polite, helpful people which is pretty cool. I hope the project goes well for you.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Agree with the kit approach for the first one. You'll have a high chance of success if you buy an LMI kit and buy Robbie Obriens online video course. He is building an LMI kit in the videos and does a good job of showing methods for accomplishing tasks with minimum tooling. You could buy the video course now, watch them all, then go tool up and buy a kit. There are other kit suppliers and other video courses out there, this is just the combo I'm familiar with. I've built a few guitars now and still use the Obrien videos for reference. I used them to establish a set of steps that flow together nicely. It will help to build confidence quickly.


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Author:  kjaffrey [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
I would second what was already said about choosing a method and sticking with it. When I teach chemistry in my day job there are certain times when I teach a method and warn students that the steps might not make much sense in and of themselves bit they will get you to the right structure in the end. Guitar building can be something like that especially when comparing using a mold to not using a mold. I started with Cumpianos book, and for a cheap way for doing things his method rocks, but have since switched to using rafius dishes and molds and things are definitely different. Using molds is certainly the more fashionable/expensive way to do things now so there is more online help (which could be a mixed bag for a beginner since even with molds there are many options) but I would still lean towards the Cumpiano book if I were helping someone start today.

Kent
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
I would get as many books as you can afford and read them all through and through and decide on what method you want to use and go for it.

I would also suggest that you keep it simple, be patient, and don't expect much. Some people are just naturally talented, you may be one of them, but generally speaking it takes about ten guitars to start getting good at it.

There are many approaches, I am personally not a fan of the kit approach because of a few reasons. Making a guitar is a complicated thing. So is making a good Paella. Getting the crispy, caramelized crust on the bottom and cooking the rice so it has that excellent bite (al dente) takes some practice. Making paella is all about the technique and the tools. You can just simply follow the recipe and you will probably get something that even tastes good but you will have no idea how you got there and what you learned from doing it. You can also just buy everything pre-assembled in a guitar kit and glue pieces together and end up with a guitar that probably sounds good, even great maybe. But you will not have the fundamental learning experience from doing everything.

That is just my opinion.

Learning is different for everyone. If you learn from mistakes like I do, as frustrating as it is, then I'd say just dive into it and start making mistakes. If you are a perfectionist then you are going to find making a guitar a very difficult experience, make your mistakes and move on.
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Yes, for sure, embrace the mistakes. I live my life by this motto: Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. You just have to make decisions, see how they work out, and then move on to making more decisions later. Some decisions you repeat because they worked out well for you in the past; some you tweak, because they did not work out so well. Many endeavors in life come down to this: You are only good at a thing if you are willing to be bad at it long enough to learn, really learn the hard way, how to be good at it.

Sorry to go all "guru" there for a moment, but I think it is particularly applicable to building guitars.
Author:  cessnageek [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
When following cut and dry directions, I find it very easy to do it mindlessly, so I think I will gravitate towards building it from scratch instead of a kit. I like to make my mistakes for myself, because then I learn to not do it again, and it is just experience that I wouldn't have with a kit. However, that doesn't mean a kit isn't right for some people, just my learning style is better if I do it myself.
I bought a book that seems pretty common in the luithery world, and plan to read it and ingest as much information as possible from various sources before I start building this summer. Hopefully I can finish it before I go back to school, but I'm not going to rush it because I tend to do sloppy work when I try to work fast.
Thanks!
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Oh, I just thought of another gem. Seriously, this is really good advice:

If you are going to use threaded inserts for the neck joint, you need to learn how to insert the bloody things the right way. The right way (for guitar building, anyway) is with a dedicated driver, made from a scrap bolt and some nuts, that you chuck up in your drill press. You also need to clamp the workpiece tightly between some wooden cauls while driving the insert, because in solid wood (not plywood), the force of the threads cutting their channels into the wood can split the workpiece. It happens, and you don't want it happening to your guitar neck. It also helps to countersink the mouth of the hole a little; it lessens the chance of chipping as the insert gets started. Also, if you are using threaded inserts to hold the neck onto the guitar, a hardwood dowel glued into the neck heel (running from the heelcap to the underside of the fretboard) accomplishes a lot of good. It strengthens the heel, and it gives the inserts a cross grain to thread into instead of end grain.

This is on my mind because I am dealing with some slightly askew inserts right now and it is driving me batty. Never again. I'm a convert, a zealot. Saul to Paul.
Author:  bionta [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Great tips here! I'm building my #1 right now so this is gold for me.

I'm another person on the non-kit side. I make mistakes. Lots and lots of mistakes. I'm not going for perfection on my first guitar but I'm using it as a learning exercise. If I'd started with a kit, I probably would have wasted half of the materials by now and gotten frustrated. Instead I started out by buying some relatively inexpensive wood at a local lumber supplier. (My method falls apart if you don't have access to one of those.) I bought "mast and spar" spruce, intended for boat builders. So far I'm just using it for brace wood on this guitar. I got a real bargain on some great spruce for the top from someone on this forum (Alan Edie, bless his heart). I bought a relatively modest (but nice!) back and side set from RC Tonewoods. I bought a nice stick of mahogany from my local lumber yard for the neck. And I found a small scrap of fancy burl veneer for the rosette left over from a picture frame project several years past.

So far I've made 4 neck blanks (getting 3 usable ones and one kind of messed up), made the rosette twice and yesterday I finally glued my third X-brace to the top.

Did I mention that I make lots of mistakes?

But I feel I've learned a lot already and so far, my top is still good to go.

This forum is fantastic. Thanks to all of you.

-- Bob
Author:  RustySP [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
A tip for those using a drill press to install threaded inserts for the first time:
Don't turn on the drill press.


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Author:  DannyV [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Wait until at least your second guitar before you break into the BRW stash. duh
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
I suggest making a test mule guitar first or at the same time as your "1st". Spend as little as possible on materials for the mule. Usually you can find good but blemished or lumber yard stuff or similar very cheap. Just giter done on the mule and focus on perfection on he real "1st" guitar. You'll build confidence. Read up AMAP first, but Learn by doing. You'll have the best beach guitar ever and won't mind if your kid chews on it.

Like Hesh says pay attention to geometry/intonation/playability/setup(which is a whole skill in itself).
Author:  Fasterthanlight [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Bend the sides and glue in the neck/heel blocks, side braces and kerfing together first.

The reason being that you should not wait too long (a day, max) to glue your back and top onto the sides ones you have carved the braces. Otherwise they can loose their respective radii due to oposing grain tension (and moisture) and you will have to strip the braces and start again...

I found this out the hard way...

FTL
Author:  ernie [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Build . buy, beg ,or borrow a decent workbench or table, It makes life in the luthiers lane a lot easier.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
I second the kit approach for the first. Pick a vendor that has good instructions. KMG, LMI, or StewMac come to mind. You will be rewarded with a decent instrument and still have to do all the really important stuff that results in playability yourself. Neck angle, upper bout geometry, fretting and leveling, nut and saddle fabrication, setup etc.

Right now you don't even know what questions to ask but after a kit or two you will and your first scratch built will have a much better chance to turn out successfully.
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Hesh wrote:
Understand and implement a proper RH (humidity) situation for where you are....

Before any tonewood or tools need to be purchased or used if you don't have your RH (relative humidity) in an acceptable range (42 - 48% is a good range for many locations, not all) you may experience some avoidable set-backs. Simply determining RH accurately may be more involved than you might think....

My tip two and often job one when helping new builders is to instill the sense that ultimately a guitar is a tool for a musician. You can approach it as a woodworking project, art, platform for innovation, or compensation from something else but again ultimately a decent guitar is a tool for a musician. This means that how it plays, set-up skills, nut making, fretting, neck angle, action, scale length, intonation are to folks who work in the trade FAR more important than a pretty rosette.

Welcome to the forum.

Excellent tip Hesh!
I'm still building solid-bodies and I can see humidity effects on pretty big chunks of wood. Especially neck joints.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Just to clarify, an unserviced kit from LMI is just a pile of wood. You still bend the sides, thickness everything, scarf joint, stacked heel, carve the neck, etc... so unless you are planning on resawing your own back and sides you aren't "missing out" on anything by going with a kit. The only thing you would miss out on is not having all the parts needed to complete an actual instrument. $0.02.




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Author:  cessnageek [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tips and tricks
Aha! Thanks, Brad. I like that idea even better. I'm ok with buying all the wood in a kit, I just want to do the work myself. Thanks for the tip!
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