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Non-rosewood favorites
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48717		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Doc [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Non-rosewood favorites
I was thinking the other day about rosewoods becoming more difficult to deal with in the coming year and since most factory produced guitars tend to be either mahogany or rosewood--I would imagine that eventually the big producers will deplete their stores and be forced to turn elsewhere to meet the demand. Are there other woods which we builders prefer working for backs and sides? I've used several different species like walnut, cherry, black limba, monkeypod, and amazon rosewood over the years--each has its own characteristic workability as well as tonal influence.

Anyone care to share which B&S woods they prefer shaping into a guitar that aren't mainstream and why? Personally, I've really enjoyed working with monkeypod, but had players comment that black limba (I found it resisted becoming a guitar every step of the way at my hands) gave them the best sound.

My WAS has me drooling at times looking at Tiger Myrtle offered by Colonial Tonewoods and Chocolate Mango at RC Tonewoods. But I'd like to hear from others on less common woods they favor and why.
Author:  wbergman [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Some of the top classical builders have often used maple, e.g., Torres and Jose Oribe, who is still living and has all the rosewood he needs.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Cherry is a fine wood, generally harder than soft maple but not as hard as Rock maple. It works and bends well, finishes nicely, can be had with some interesting fiigure, and makes a nice sounding guitar.

One of my favorites is quartered oak; don't bother with flat cut. Some folks don't like the prominant ray patterning, and it can be hard to sell, but almost everyboody who has tried one of my oak guitars has liked it a lot.

Black locust is a good substitute for Indian rosewood in terms of the way it works and sounds. It's light colored, and the Classical I made from it looked a lot like a Flamenco; a 'Classica Blanca' as it were.

Osage Orange is as close as you'll come to Brazilian rosewood in properties. It tends to be cross grained, and is hard to work with hand tools, but resists splitting far better than BRW.

I could go on. It's not too hard to find good wood locally, although fingerboards can be a challenge. I wish I could find a supplier of soft shell almond fingerboard blanks.
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
There are a lot of great alternatives. I'm finding of late the high shipping costs for us in Canada from you in the US have become an influencing factor. The immediate solution for me will be Maple because it's a weed (from a loggers point of view) and readily available.

I have done a number of lumber yard wood guitars and I think I would have to say my favourite is Wenge. I have only built one with Wenge and ti turned out wonderful. It is porous and slivery but if you have any faith in tap tone it rings like a gong. My current player if Mun Ebony. It is an outstanding guitar but I think I am mostly done with the Ebonies. I might be mistaken but I think they are too crack prone for my liking.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Mediterranian Cypress, but then I'm a flamenco fan. Domestic alternatives are Yellow cedar, Port Orford Cedar. Jose Romanillos commented that some of his favorite guitars that he built were cypress. Plus, there's the smell. Yum!
Author:  johnparchem [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Hawaiian Koa, Can be a great looking and a great sounding wood.
Author:  bftobin [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
If you're looking for a good sounding lookalike replacement, Bolivian Rosewood (Morado-not a real rosewood) is the first thing that comes to mind.
The added benefit is easy finishing. Will be easily accepted by customers.

Brent
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Aside from the domestic woods people have mentioned, bubinga and pau ferro both make nice looking and fine sounding guitars. Bacote, ipe, goncalo alves, jatoba, wenge, Australian blackwood and a bunch of others make fine tonewoods. The biggest problem won't be using them for guitars as much as it will be selling them as "first rate" to the consumer.
I wonder what the wood wind makers will use since african blackwood is a dalbergia?
Author:  Pat Foster [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
I'm pretty partial to padouk these days.

Pat
Author:  bcombs510 [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
+1 on Padauk and Bocote. The sawdust from Padauk can be a bummer. Bocote smells like pickles and I end up craving burgers for some reason. :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  rlrhett [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
I don't like where Padauk ends up after it oxidizes. Someone once called it the color of dog poop, and I've never been able to shake that visual.

I love Maple, Walnut and Cherry. For customer appeal, I think figure speaks louder than species. High flame anything gets the ooohs and aaahs.

Where I'm struggling is in fingerboards and bridges. I believe in CITES and what it tries to achieve. I don't want to contribute to the destruction or the criminal violence of illegal logging. Even if CITES did not exist I would like to find alternatives to rosewood and Ebony.

I have a couple of good hardwood lumber yards here, but no mesquite or persimmon. ☹️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  douglas ingram [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Can't forget Ash and Birch. Both are good.

I also really like Maple, Walnut, Oak, and Cherry.
Author:  unkabob [ Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
I have built a couple out of Jatoba (Brazilian Cherry) and it is a bit splintery (slivers hurt) but it is not bad to work and finishes OK. My problem is Honduran for sound-boards.

Bob :ugeek:
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Tiger Myrtle too.

I've always believed that the term "tonewood" is misleading. Nearly any wood could be tonewood in terms of producing tone when properly built and braced. Will the wood be suitable for what a guitar has to endure, RH stability, dimensional stability over time, crack resistance, and being impervious to scotch drool are all important factors here.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
I'm also a very big fan of oak, if only it was not such a PIA to finish. I've built with the big three US domestic woods too, maple, cherry and walnut and they are all wonderful. I particularly like walnut for it's look. I also have built many guitars with Imbuia since I got a huge stash of it for free. It's kinda sorta like walnut. I have been collecting Wenge because I like the look of it and it has an incredible glassy tap tone.

I think that we will see a lot more use of Rock(Rich)lite for fretboards. The guitar playing public will simply have to get used to things like that.
Author:  Robert Lak [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
rlrhett wrote:
I don't like where Padauk ends up after it oxidizes. Someone once called it the color of dog poop


Oh, thank you soooo much for that... [:Y:]

Now, I must return to the two dog poop guitars on my bench. *sigh*
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
I love the "in-betweens," like koa and walnut.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Robert Lak wrote:
rlrhett wrote:
I don't like where Padauk ends up after it oxidizes. Someone once called it the color of dog poop

Now, I must return to the two dog poop guitars on my bench. *sigh*


[clap] :D "Hey, this is gross. Taste it!" 8-)
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
bcombs510 wrote:
Robert Lak wrote:
rlrhett wrote:
I don't like where Padauk ends up after it oxidizes. Someone once called it the color of dog poop

Now, I must return to the two dog poop guitars on my bench. *sigh*


[clap] :D "Hey, this is gross. Taste it!" 8-)


Yeah Rob, good thing we didn't step in it.....:)

Another favorite of mine is Blackwood aka Black Acacia. A little less red and more gold than Koa (which I like) and very similar in bending, tone, etc.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Some of the local luthiers call wenge 'African crack wood'. With the wide swings in relative humidity we 'enjoy' it doesn't seem to hold up well.

Padauk is another close match for BRW in properties. It also has a tendency to crack in my experinece, and it has pores like soda straws. I;ve used it as a demo wood for French polish filling; you can do a perfect job today and tomorrow it's right back to where you started almost. Thus you can get plenty of practice from one piece. The color change is much slower under finish, and it's not really an unnatractive color in the end. The old inlay artist's rule is that all woods end up brown, so you don't pay uch attention to the fresh color if you're making something to last.

In my mind, the big advantage of 'local' woods is the way they're harvested. This is not to say that all of the walnut or maple or cherry out there is cut under strictly eco-friendly conditions. However, most states in the US have pretty reasonable laws about wood harvesting that punish poachers, and they tend to be enforced. I have read that most of the US hardwood on the market is cut from privately owned plots of land of under 200 acres. In other words, it's not some big corporation that's only interested in raping the land and moving on; it's somebody like me, who has some timber and wants to realize some income, but is not going to ruin things. In theory the harvest can be sustained indefinitely.

Of course, the same could be done anywhere. 'All' that is needed is good laws, well enforced, and low corruption. Many tropical areas seem to lack one or another of these conditions, so that even if the local poeple want to harvest sustainably they can't.

I can make a good sounding guitar out of any number of different woods, so I don't feel any particular need to use tropical ones for the most part. I'd forgo them entirely if people would buy local. Perhaps, with all of the changes in the laws, that day is approaching.
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
I found some "Rainbow" Padauk with spiderweb figure on FeeBay for a price that I could not refuse. I'm using it for base models, great tap, works easy and it's stunningly gorgeous. I don't want it to fade! I wish there was a UV protectant finish that would preserve that bright red color for ever.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Imbuia.
Sides hold their shape-great aroma .
Indian R.W. like in helping to shape the tone etc.

All Maples!
Walnut
Cherry.
Chocolate mango- RC. Tonewoods

West coast Myrtle.
Black Hearted Sassafras .
African Hogwood.

Mikke [:Y:]
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
I love lots of different woods..... The biggest thing I run into is that folks won't accept stuff outside of the standard Mahogany/Rosewood....

I had the same experience as Al lamented about so many times... Somebody plays the guitar and it speaks to them. They look plaintively at it... Then look at you and say "Wow! This thing sure plays and sounds great. Can you make this with Mahogany/Rosewood....." There are a few luthiers who are making progress... Tim McKnight is the one I think of off the top of my head.... But not many.

Seriously... Cuban (and subsequently Honduras) mahogany became guitar wood because CF Martin I could get it nearly free on the docks in New York. It was a budget wood for his cheap guitars - as Cedar, Birch, and straight grained maple had been in Europe. Until very recently - real Honduras mahogany cost 2/3 the price of straight grained maple and 1/2 the cost of straight grained walnut... And well quartersawn cherry sets could not be had for love nor money unless you cut the tree yourself..

And now - decent quartersawn stuff is like $10 less per set than Indian Rosewood of the same grade.

And sure - I love mahogany... It's brown and it's just so nice to work.... But so are Cherry and Walnut.... But there's a lot of stuff out there that makes a great guitar.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
My first choice is walnut. I've built with it quite a bit and love it. Works well, smells fantastic.

I've also made great sounding guitars out of pau ferro, padauk, wenge, sycamore, etc.

I'm currently working on guitars is myrtle and osage orange. I have high hopes for both.

As has been mentioned, the problem is not finding wood that makes good guitars, it's finding buyers with an open enough mind to purchase them. Here's to hoping minds change soon.
Author:  Craig Bumgarner [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-rosewood favorites
Walnut!
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