It's a lot easier to just fake it though
| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48639 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | ernie [ Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
question . I have seen at least 3 pro luthiers making 1 piece bandsawn necks . I/ve never done it. I always scarf joint mine . As I have seen numerous broken necks that were made from 1 piece when I ran a repair shop. Seems to me that the weak spot is in the short grain between the transition from the headstock to the nut. Your thoughts and opinions thanks |
|
| Author: | Ken Jones [ Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
I agree, that's why I run two carbon fiber beams alongside the truss rod, which extend through the short grain into the headstock. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
|
| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
I agree also. I use to do the carbon fiber also but have not for many years now. I have gone to a scarf neck with uncut (un-scarfed) 5 piece laminate in the center. I like to use two 2 maple pieces in the layup, around 3/16" each, with a center dark wood. Although maybe not totally drop proof, I think it makes for a strong neck. |
|
| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
One piece necks are the fastest way to get things done in a factory, not necessarily best practice. But folks still expect them on the high dollar offerings. |
|
| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
Though, having recently run out of my 1pc necks, I can say I sure hate making scarf joints. |
|
| Author: | ernie [ Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
I/ve got the cf stock for necks , but feel that there is vy little gained in stiffness. but I do occassionaly use one on really soft necks |
|
| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
I like the modified bridle joint for pegheads. It allows me to shape and drill the peghead separate from the neck. It also allows me to use less wood (less waste) especially when combined with a glued on heel block. Rough sawn 4/4 and 5/4 lumber typically costs less than 12/4 per board foot and is usually better dried. |
|
| Author: | rlrhett [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
Clay S. wrote: I like the modified bridle joint for pegheads. It allows me to shape and drill the peghead separate from the neck. It also allows me to use less wood (less waste) especially when combined with a glued on heel block. Rough sawn 4/4 and 5/4 lumber typically costs less than 12/4 per board foot and is usually better dried. I'll bite, what is the "modified bridle joint"? |
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
The modified bridle joint is the bird's beak type joint that Martin used a long time ago, the one that resulted in the diamond sticking out at the back of the peghead. |
|
| Author: | cwood3 [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
To further the "I'll bite" comment above, I am going to make a "Martin-style" neck for a dreadnought, with "diamond" volute. Are there any YouTube vids or pictorial tutorials out there that address the construction technique for that feature? Not trying to hijack. |
|
| Author: | kencierp [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
Bird's beak how to: http://www.grevenguitars.com/birds-beak-demo.html |
|
| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
It's a lot easier to just fake it though
|
|
| Author: | doncaparker [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
OK, I cannot resist: That's what she said. I'm not proud of myself. |
|
| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
Greven's version is not exactly how Martin did it. His is a bit more complicated and with a weaker finished product than the Martin version. When laying out the Martin style the "volute" V is marked all the way through the neck and cut with a handsaw (or if you make a jig, a bandsaw). Only minor finishing is required to shape the "diamond" and the concealed part of the joint (ramp?) is larger with more gluing surface. |
|
| Author: | cwood3 [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
uhhh....OK.....so I wonder if there is a version of the "Greven", but done the "Martin" way....that would be keen. |
|
| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
On Frank fords site there is a repair thread where the joint is shown taken apart, and from that you can see some of the differences. I will try to take some pictures next time I make a neck to show how I do it, which is closer to the original Martin technique (but with more power tools). |
|
| Author: | kencierp [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
Not to be contrary, but I would think the Greven version being interlocking with multiple glue surface planes is actually the stronger of the two designs. Certainly more complex to fabricate. |
|
| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
The Greven method looks a lot like the way the Selmer joints are made... Too complicated for me. |
|
| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
"Not to be contrary, but I would think the Greven version being interlocking with multiple glue surface planes is actually the stronger of the two designs." The principle difference is that with Greven's MBJ he is cutting out the shape of the volute with the board flat to the band saw table. With the Martin style the cut is made from the center line and at an angle through the blank. The "diamond" shape appears because of the angle of the headstock. Cutting it this way, the hidden (interlocking) part of the joint becomes larger, where Greven's interlocking part of the joint is only as large as the diamond above it. |
|
| Author: | cwood3 [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
..........lemme see, first I take a cigar box and cut a hole in it, then I.......yeeesh..... |
|
| Author: | TimAllen [ Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
I think the bird's beak joint is from the time when raw materials were relatively inexpensive and hours of skilled labor were cheap. IMHO it's very cool. I haven't done ever done it but I've been gathering info. Clay S. has been very generous with his knowledge on this. Here's a link to an 2002 MIMF discussion of the bird's beak joint which includes some pictures taken at that time by Clay. [Edit: I see the link I posted is gone.] |
|
| Author: | Quine [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
As a cheap old yankee.....I think a scarf joint is just a better use of material. You could slice a 1-piece neck blank up and easily make two necks out of it. Its takes longer to make a neck, but gluing a scarf joint and stacked heel block isn't a huge percentage of my building time. More joints means more hand-built right?? Now if there was a fast-but-wasteful way to finish, I'd be all over that!! |
|
| Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
You can make 2 one-piece necks out of a 1-piece neck blank anyway. |
|
| Author: | Ruby50 [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
I have collected these off the internet and am about to make my first one with the volute. It will be out of Ash from a tree on a friend's West Virginia farm. https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/30654309854/in/album-72157673572784144/ The first set of about 9 is from John Arnold, a well known luthier who specializes in Martin reproductions. Then comes a shot of a Martin joint partially disassembled - it was labelled "Bridle Joint Exploded". Then third is a set of shots and I never wrote down the luthier who posted - sorry. If you don't have one to copy then the third picture from the end is very helpful as it shows the location of the volute from the side with respect to the nut. Ed |
|
| Author: | SteveG [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 1Piece Neck VS scarf joint neck |
Ed, Those pictures are from either Bruce Sexauer or Howard Klepper and were from : http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/136217#.WEix85JJ9Bw cheers |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|