Here's a drop for us northerners...
No mention of cost, but a 40 day service standard, well, good times...
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| All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for us? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48606 |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for us? |
I've seen lots of reports that all Dalbergia species will go on CITES appendix II in January and so trade of all rosewoods across international borders will be restricted, but I can't sem to find any documentation of the details. I know that logs and sawn wood including veneers will be restricted, but in the past only these and not guitars or other finished products made from restricted species (excepting appendix I items like Brazilian rosewood) have been included. I have seen conjecture that this time things are somehow different... In short, will we be able to sell guitars made with rosewoods across borders? How about parts like bridge pins? Hopefully some folks in the know will chime in... For those who don't already know: https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... wood-trade http://acousticguitar.com/will-new-rose ... uitarists/ https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ife-summit |
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| Author: | George L [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
James - I don't know the answers to your questions, but here's a link to a prior discussion: viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48130 |
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| Author: | peter.coombe [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Yes, all Dalbergia species will be on CITES appendix II after January 1st 2017. The restrictions will include finished items, so guitars will be included. However, your own personal guitar is exempt so musicians travelling with their guitar don't need to worry. What it means for us is that all rosewoods will become difficult to get and will get more expensive. Commercial international sales of rosewood guitars will be subjected to the restrictions so if you are carrying on a commercial business as a Luthier then you will need CITES documentation and permits to sell a rosewood guitar internationally. That is my understanding of what is going to happen, but the details have not yet been published. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
I just saw a document from Fish and Wild Life that noted that many other countries have more restrictions than the USA. I recall something like the EU will not allow pre CITES BRW imports unless it is returning an item that had originated in the EU prior to 1945. The point is, you need to check on the rules of each country involved. There may other countries that do not even allow your personal guitar. |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
peter.coombe wrote: Yes, all Dalbergia species will be on CITES appendix II after January 1st 2017. The restrictions will include finished items, so guitars will be included. However, your own personal guitar is exempt so musicians travelling with their guitar don't need to worry. What it means for us is that all rosewoods will become difficult to get and will get more expensive. Commercial international sales of rosewood guitars will be subjected to the restrictions so if you are carrying on a commercial business as a Luthier then you will need CITES documentation and permits to sell a rosewood guitar internationally. That is my understanding of what is going to happen, but the details have not yet been published. A couple of years ago I looked into getting re-export permits to sell wood internationally and it was not even close to worth it in terms of cost or effort. I expect if finished products are included the new regs will be a death knell for a lot of luthiers' and retailers' businesses. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
I guess Torres was ahead of his time - they haven't banned paper mache yet! |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
read the USFW letter here ... https://www.namm.org/issues-and-advocac ... nd-bubinga |
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| Author: | klooker [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
They're listing Bubinga too because it's sometimes called "African Rosewood"? I thought Bubinga was pretty abundant? |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
klooker wrote: They're listing Bubinga too because it's sometimes called "African Rosewood"? I thought Bubinga was pretty abundant? Yeah, I was surprised at that too. It's easy to come by here, even piles of it at the local Woodcraft. When was the last time you saw a pile of Rosewood boards of any kind at your local retailer? |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Is the bubinga we use one of the bubingas covered? What about out padauk which is pterocarpus somethingambob...? |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
What is the regulatory body to get the paperwork in Canada? |
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| Author: | Sankey Guitars [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Peter, can you provide a link to the source stating that finished products would be included in the restrictions, besides the NAMM letter? I was expecting that lumber, logs and veneer would become problematic, but this is the first I've heard of finished products being restricted too. I think, as usual, there is some "broken telephone" going on. For example, Kosso is the common name for Hagenia Abyssinica, but Pterocarpus Erinaceus is the one indicated as being restricted. The people reporting on this issue are probably not botanists, and it is a pretty complicated matter, but still... |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Sankey Guitars wrote: Peter, can you provide a link to the source stating that finished products would be included in the restrictions, besides the NAMM letter? I was expecting that lumber, logs and veneer would become problematic, but this is the first I've heard of finished products being restricted too. I think, as usual, there is some "broken telephone" going on. For example, Kosso is the common name for Hagenia Abyssinica, but Pterocarpus Erinaceus is the one indicated as being restricted. The people reporting on this issue are probably not botanists, and it is a pretty complicated matter, but still... www.fws.gov/international/plants/wood-and-other-tree-products.html wrote: Effective January 2, 2017: The entire genus Dalbergia spp. (except for Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra), which is listed in Appendix I), the three bubinga species of Guibourtia demeusei, Guibourtia pellegriniana, and Guibourtia tessmannii, and kosso (also called African rosewood) (Pterocarpus erinaceus) have been listed in CITES Appendix II and CITES documention may be required for import and re-export of these species and items made from them. For additional information on this listing, please read this letter to U.S. timber importers and re-exporters.
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Here's a drop for us northerners... No mention of cost, but a 40 day service standard, well, good times... |
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| Author: | Sankey Guitars [ Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Thanks Ed. Yeah, the cost of the permit will determine if this is going to be just an annoyance or a death knell for canadian luthiers. I honestly don't see how this can stand- probably 80 percent of all guitars have some dalbergia in them. I imagine that musical instrument retailers are going to take issue with it, not to mention the big manufacturers. Perhaps we can pressure them into making exceptions for finished musical instruments at least. I'll contact the Cites Permit office for more information and to give them my two cents worth; I strongly encourage all other canadian luthiers to do the same. It'll only take a few minutes. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
It doesn't have to be a death knell, but it will very much alter your material choices... |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
I began converting to mainly local woods more than 10 years ago. From my own personal point of view I've solved Back, sides and fretboard. Necks are a little more problematic but I haven't really tried to address that, partly because I had such a stash of honduran and cedrela. I think I have enough for 30 more guitars and that's it, even some of those are sapele. I'm more than content to use maple, walnut, cherry and oak. In fact I've arrived at the point where I can safely say that I specialise in non rosewood guitars! It helps if you come from a background of lute, vihuela type instruments. The clamour for rosewood is much less than in the world of the modern guitar, so the switch just seems more natural. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Right, so...for us northerners...      No fee, great inconvenience. 35 days. Right. The poor bastards don't know what's coming. Imagine the sheer amount of paperwork about to be generated. Just consider the amount of paper that's going to be used to protect trees. |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
meddlingfool wrote: Just consider the amount of paper that's going to be used to protect trees. Some trees have more rights than others. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
All trees matter. |
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| Author: | Braedyn [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
If you're not in the US, does this make your rosewood collection a mini fortune, or totally worthless? 
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
Neither. It means if you want to ship into the US or any other country, you need to fill out more paperwork, as displayed above. |
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| Author: | peter.coombe [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
USA Luthiers don't panic. Looks like you guys in the USA don't need to worry about availability of Indian Rosewood, you just won't be able to export your guitars without the appropriate permit and CITES paperwork. Just heard from LMI. They will continue to import Indian Rosewood from India (with the appropriate permits and documentation) and sell to their retail customers in the USA. They will not be making retail international sales because of the long delays getting permits and the cost which makes international retail unviable. So if you are not in the USA retail supplies of Indian Rosewood are likely to become unavailable unless you have a local supplier prepared to do the same as LMI. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
I'm sure that I'll be able to drive an hour to Exotic Woods, and still get all the rosewood guitar stuff. It'll be wait and see what the prices are, though. Alex |
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| Author: | Sankey Guitars [ Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: All rosewoods on CITES appendix II: what's that mean for |
So for each instrument we'll have to fill out one application form. Now, I assume that it'll just be a formality, rubber-stamp kind of process. Hopefully they don't reject applications just because they feel like it. My plan will be to apply for a permit while the guitar is in process, so that by the time it's done the paperwork is ready. There doesn't have to be any physical paperwork generated (except for the one that accompanies the guitar across the border) as long as you use the digital application form. It's listed on the Canadian Cites Permit office website, but unfortunately the link leads to the import form, not the export. I've left them a message about that; no response yet. The import form seems to be simple as well, and I didn't see a cost so it might be free too. This means that hopefully resellers will be able to import rosewood without too much trouble. Which begs the question, why even bother with the process? |
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