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Shooting board joint
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48604		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bcombs510 [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting board joint
Hello,

In the few builds I've completed so far I've used the sanding method to make the plate joint ready for glue up. My process:

1) Both halves of the back or top run through the jointer (Jet 6") two or three passes flipping the boards lengthwise between passes. Just taking a whisper off.

2) Fresh 220 stikit on a SM long leveling beam. Place one half on top of the other with the jointed edge hanging over slightly. 10 or so strokes with the sandpaper.

Generally this is enough to get a good joint. I hold the pieces together and up to the light, nothing showing through the joint. Sometimes I have to go back to the sanding once or twice more. Depends on the wood species.

The recent thread on this topic peaked my interest about using a shooting board / plane approach instead of the sanding. So today I took a new top and ran the halves through the jointer for a few passes. Right off the jointer it actually looked pretty good. I used the shooting board (no ramp style) and the joint was terrible afterward. The plane iron is freshly sharpened, but it's only a #5. That's the longest plane I own. Basically I own a Stanley low angle block plane, a Stanley #5 and one of those tiny brace carving planes.

Is the #5 the problem? Is there more of a technique than just taking a full pass while on the shooting board? Is this a cheap excuse to buy one of those shooting board planes for Christmas? :D

Ideas are appreciated.

Brad


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Author:  bcombs510 [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting board joint
For completeness... it's pretty much this plane. It is not exactly this, but an older similar version.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0001IWD ... ref=plSrch


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Author:  DennisK [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
13" is more than enough length. Is it flat? Most planes aren't. Jointing is easy with a flat and sharp plane, and very difficult otherwise.

Another possible mistake is taking too thick of shavings. The ability to take fluffy thin shavings is why you need extreme sharpness in the first place.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
There's definitely technique involved. The #5 should be long enough I would think, I often use a Veritas low angle jack about 14 or 15" long I think. A well tuned plane will also help alleviate so of the frustration, flat sole, sharp blade, etc.. One of the keys is applying an even pressure across the length of the whole stroke paying particular attention to how you enter and exit off of the cut. I find it helpful for me to try to use a whole body motion.
But, this sounds like a perfect excuse to get a new plane!
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
It requires a special technique as well, not just a good plane. A good plane, even very sharp, taking very thin shavings isn't going to do it if the technique isn't there.

Not that that should stop you from buying a new plane;)
Author:  WilliamS [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
A #6 is nice but a #5 is plenty long. I usually use an #5 but have even used a #4 for tops/backs before. If your plane is flat and sharp then it should be pretty quick and easy to get a good joint...but it does take a little practice to get the technique down.

In general, you want to start the cut with pressure on the toe and transfer pressure to the heel by the end of the cut. So pressure on the toe to start, neutral in the middle and on the heel to finish.

Also, it's easier to go from concave to flat than convex to flat. So it doesn't hurt to take a few light strokes working out from the middle to create a slight convexity then set your plane to take about as fine a cut as possible. Your first several strokes will only remove material from the ends. When you get a full length/full width shaving from both pieces then the joint should be good. Candle and if not perfect then note where it's off and take another stroke or two, adjusting you pressure slightly according to where material needs to be removed, to perfect the joint.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
Thanks for the help folks. I'll start with double checking it's flat. I have a ruined soundboard that I can practice on. Thanks for the feedback on the motion too, I'll keep that in mind.


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Author:  James Orr [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
A friend can actually joint a top or back set with a block plane. It's technique. A long plane is nice, but it comes down to developing a feel for transitioning the pressure from the front to the middle to the back of the plane. I'm not sure how to describe this and think others will do a better job of it, but I wanted to assure you that a #5 is perfectly adequate as long as it's flat, like Dennis said. I have a 5 1/2 now, but I learned on my 5.
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
bcombs510 wrote:
Is this a cheap excuse to buy one of those shooting board planes for Christmas?

Probably not cheap!

I have a good number of planes in different sizes and most suffer from the same (crippling) problem wrt shooting edges. They're not flat. And frankly, I think it is a waste of time trying to flatten them. Think about it. When they were machined at the factory, they would have been machined very close to flat. It is pretty difficult to do it any other way. And then they go non-flat. They warp after the fact because of locked in cooling stresses when the casting was made, which causes the casting to creep and warp as these stresses relieve themselves. If you re-flatten them without fully stress relieving them first, they just warp again. I have some planes that I have re-flattened (accurately) three or four times. So it is better to spend the money and buy a plane that is flat out of the box because the chances are it will stay flat. The two makes of note are Lie-Neilsen and Veritas. I've never had to flatten any of the planes I have of those makes, some of which would be ~15-20 years old now. I have other planes varying between 40 and 110 years old that won't stay flat and a Clifton #7 that I re-flatten about every three years (which reminds me it's due again).

Honestly, it's easier just to pay the money and get a flat one. Most of the problems then magically disappear. I usually do my shooting with a Veritas low-angle jack, with a low angle bevel for softwoods and a high angle bevel for hard woods.
Author:  Clinchriver [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
Is this a cheap excuse to buy one of those shooting board planes for Christmas? :D

I have the Veritas Shooting board plane it's really nice especially the PVMll steel. I'm glad I learned how to join plates with my Bailey#4 you use the same technique with the Veritas it's just easier to control.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
I learned to shoot joints with a a record 4 1\2. If I recall, the first top I did was almost too narrow by the time I figured it out, and that was with written guidance. Last year I bought a Veritas #6 with the PVMII blade so it would be easier to make wedges for neck resets. Turns out the #6 makes jointing plates much easier but, as Greg said, it still requires some technique.

I'll add that once you learn how to do it then it's not very difficult at all.
Author:  wbergman [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
Years ago, one of the world's most renown classical luthiers told me to just run the boards over a jointer and clamp them with bar clamps for gluing. Maybe he was just trying to encourage me to do something rather than to agonize over developing a skill that I did not have, but my impression was that he did that himself. I find it difficult enough to get the jointer set up.
Author:  johnparchem [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
I switched from sanding to using a plane on a sanding board, it took a bit to get a feel for it. I had a harder time with sand paper not slightly rolling over the edge of the plate. The joints ended up a bit more visible than what I get off a plane. I use a Lie Nielsen number 5 jack I bought off this forums classified, it turned out to be a dream come true.
Author:  jshelton [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
wbergman wrote:
Years ago, one of the world's most renown classical luthiers told me to just run the boards over a jointer and clamp them with bar clamps for gluing. Maybe he was just trying to encourage me to do something rather than to agonize over developing a skill that I did not have, but my impression was that he did that himself. I find it difficult enough to get the jointer set up.

Years ago I had my jointer beds and fence surface ground and since then have been using it for all plate joining. It's quick and easy and there have been no joint failures in many years of building.
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
#5 jack planes are usually set up with a fairly wide throat so they can remove a fair amount of material at a pass. You can move the frog forward and tighten up the throat if you want to take a finer shaving. It requires a screw driver to loosen the screws holding the frog to the bed in most cases and is a little fiddly but not too difficult to do.
If the error is always in the same spot it might be the shooting board and not the plane or your technique.
I have had good luck joining plates with my jointer. I've found that taking a reasonable bite gives a better result than just taking a "whisper". It still takes a reasonable technique - mostly a uniform feed rate across the cutter head.
Author:  J.L.K. Vesa [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
I agree that it is a combination of good plane and technique,
but at least for me it is also feel/mood thing. Like playing a ball game,
on a good day you score for fun, and on a bad day nothing goes in.
So when in the right mood, I usually join several sets at one time,
and in no time. When not feeling it I now know better to not even try.

I have done it successfully with a block plane, but I just love my No.62 low angle
jack plane from Lie Nielsen, wonderful tool!
Author:  Mike Collins [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
220 paper is to fine .
It is almost burnishing the joint/wood.
Use 120-150.
Glue will sell up the grain.

I have a 15"joiner plane. it works well also.

I use a joiner -usually comes out great.
My knives are sharp ,the tables are set right & I take light passes.

Figured woods (heavy curl etc.) I use a router table with a jig I made to
hold the wood & use a bearing bit. the edge on the jig where the bearing runs is a perfect as I could make it Works great with no tearout.

Mike


Mike
Author:  murrmac [ Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
Always worth remembering that at the end of the day, the soundboard joint only needs to be perfect for between 11" and 12 ", ie between the soundhole edge and the end graft. The upper part of the joint is going to be cut away anyway with the soundhole, and the remainder will be concealed by the fret board, so striving for perfection in this area is kinda wasted effort.

As far as the back is concerned, most backs will have a routed inlay strip at the center joint, and all backs will have a center graft on the inside, so getting a microscopically perfect joint on the back isn't really all that big of a deal either.
Author:  profchris [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
I use a no 6 plane upside down in a vice - for some reason I get a better joint this way, at least on ukulele plates. I use both hands to slide the plates across the plane, but of course needed one hand here to take the picture.

Maybe the reason I find this easier is that I can feel where to apply or relax pressure on the wood, whereas if I'm moving the plane I can't feel that so well.

Image
Author:  kencierp [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
Quote:
I use a joiner -usually comes out great.
My knives are sharp ,the tables are set right & I take light passes.


A properly set up joiner makes this a very simple job. I would never go back to a hand plane. However, certainly nothing wrong with having that equipment and skill. $.02
Author:  bcombs510 [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
kencierp wrote:
Quote:
I use a joiner -usually comes out great.
My knives are sharp ,the tables are set right & I take light passes.


A properly set up joiner makes this a very simple job. I would never go back to a hand plane. However, certainly nothing wrong with having that equipment and skill. $.02


You go straight off the jointer and ready for glue up? My jointer is set up pretty well and I've only used the sandpaper on the leveling beam in order to be sure the joint was tight.
Author:  kencierp [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
If your joiner is set up properly -- there is no need for any further processing before glue up.

Think factories Taylor, Martin Blah blah blah --- off the joiner to glue up.

In other words if you need a sanding bar or shooting board to true things up your joiner is not set up properly -- perfect is not the same as pretty good.
Author:  kencierp [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
Quote:
Both halves of the back or top run through the jointer (Jet 6") two or three passes flipping the boards lengthwise between passes.


Why are you flipping?

Just an observation I made over the years -- when a perfect joint cannot be achieved on a power jointer its usually an out of whack in-feed table that is the culprit.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
kencierp wrote:
Quote:
Both halves of the back or top run through the jointer (Jet 6") two or three passes flipping the boards lengthwise between passes.


Why are you flipping?

Just an observation I made over the years -- when a perfect joint cannot be achieved on a power jointer its usually an out of whack in-feed table that is the culprit.


The flipping is habit and not necessary.

To be honest, the joint is perfect off the jointer, I have been using the sanding simply because there is so much emphasis put on this joint in all the documentation I've read I felt it required to do more than just use the power jointer. Sounds like it isn't necessary at all.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shooting board joint
If you can glue the boards together and then not be able to find the seam then you're there. Doesn't matter how you do it and obviously there is more than 1 way.
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