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| Sanded vs planed glue edge? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48504 |
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| Author: | Robert Lak [ Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I am just wondering of opinions on a sanded edge vs. a planed edge for jointing tops/backs. (other than you should never join a top half to a back half...) Pros/cons? I was taught one way and was surprised to come across some who do it the other. Maybe it don't matter so much? |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
In theory a properly done planed joint is stronger than a sanded joint that is equally well fitted. In practice some folks find it easier to sand the joint straight than to plane it, so in that case sanding is better. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I would think that sanding a joint like that would be more difficult to plane one because of how easy it is to round things off when sanding. But I guess some people find it easier. On paper the planed joint is better, in reality the degree to which it is better probably far exceeds it's function. |
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| Author: | George L [ Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I favor using a plane because it seems to leave a cleaner surface, with less chance of a visible glue line, but both approaches have worked fine for me. |
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| Author: | kjaffrey [ Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I would also be afraid of the glue line showing more on spruce when you sand. It can be tricky sometimes getting the perfect joint with a plane and shooting board so I have been know to occasionally sand to get a tight joint, but try to do it a little as possible. |
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| Author: | Robert Lak [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
Thnx. Was curious as it took me prolly 45 minutes to get that edge right, and I really, really wanted to sand but it was not the way. Am looking at planes (5 1/2 Jack) and they were a little pricey, so I was tempted again to consider whether sanding was acceptable. The point about the glue line makes some sense to me, so it's plane that's the way to go. My wallet feels lighter already. |
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| Author: | BradHall [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
For me, a jack plane was just too short to get a consistent straight edge with. I'm now using a Bailey #7, about 22" long, and the process is much easier. I was shown a technique that helps. When you get very close, plane as thin a shaving as you can off the first and last 6" of the overall length. Then make a smooth pass with constant pressure the entire length. One or possibly two passes yields great results. I do have another old #7 that I picked up at a garage sale. I found the missing frog, so it is complete. It needs work getting the bottom perfectly flat. A machine shop would be ideal, but lots of elbow grease and a very flat surface with varying degrees of abrasives would work. I'll make it available to you for shipping costs plus the $25 I paid for the replacement frog. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
When using a plane the setup is far more important than anything else. I've done all of my joining for over forty years with Record #4; a 'smoothing' plane. In the beginning it was all I could afford, so I just made it work. Sometimes it took a while to get a good joint. Eventually I learned how to fettle a plane, and got better at sharpening, and things went better. The long 'jack' and 'joiner' planes I see new are not going to work any better than my old plane di when it was new. IMO, foor the most part, the 'affordable' planes you can buy are pretty much just plane kits: a box of parts than can be made into a usable tool with some effort. That's what you're paying for when you get one of the expensive ones, like a Lie-Nielson or Lee Valley; somebody else has flattened the sole and dressed the frog and so on. Even with one of those, you still need to work on your chops, particularly sharpening. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I actually do the opposite of what BradHall suggested. Rather then take off the ends I take out the middle and create a slight 'spring joint' and then run the blade across the whole piece and it comes out perfect. But I think you really have to find out what works best for your style. I was never taught how to do this so I just kind of figured out what works and I always tend to enter and exit hard so getting the middle low first works for me. I'll just mention it again but the very first guitar I built many many years ago I tried to sand the joint like in Sloane's book with sand paper attached to a level. I think I must have spent 2 hours on the darn thing when I finally decided to just try and use a plane. It was done in minutes. I really think using sand paper makes it harder. |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I have set my planes up very well--they are flat and sharp. When it takes more than a few passes jointing (after I get in the neighborhood--some pieces start way off), it's a signal to me that it's time to sharpen. Usually, a problem joint gets perfect in a few passes after I sharpen. I have a nice Woodriver #4 that works very well for jointing plates and a nice Woodriver #6 (that I bought when it was on sale just because I could) that also works very well--I think it usually gets a good joint a bit faster than the #4. These planes are a bit heavier than the Stanleys and seem to work with less effort. I keep an antique store Stanley #4 set up with the micro edge on the top (essentially a back bevel) just for the hardest woods like Osage Orange. Next to bending sides on a pipe, jointing plates with a plane is one of the most enjoyable parts of building for me. For me, different pieces of wood behave differently. Sometimes it's the ends that stick out a bit, sometimes, the middle. I feel like I let up a bit approaching the end of the cut so it doesn't round over. I like working with the blade projecting as little as possible to take an almost infinitesimal cut. |
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| Author: | George L [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I've yet to find that magical place where I can successfully joint plates with a few light passes of anything. Like most every step in the process of making an instrument this takes me a bit of time and patience. Is it me? My tools? The phases of the moon? I don't know ... yet. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
George L wrote: I've yet to find that magical place where I can successfully joint plates with a few light passes of anything. Like most every step in the process of making an instrument this takes me a bit of time and patience. Is it me? My tools? The phases of the moon? I don't know ... yet. I've done it 53 times now. Well 106 times including backs and tops... And sometimes it goes smooth as silk and effortlessly and other times I'm left scratching my head thinking WTH is wrong? I guess it depends on what you mean by a bit of patience. If it's taking you an hour to join a top then something is wrong. I usually get it right in about 10 minutes. If it takes me longer then I do something else and come back to it, perhaps disassemble the plane and sharpen it. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I agree with jf. I have done a number of such joints with a (good) block plane. I prefer my 4 1/2, but it's really not necessary. For me well-practiced hand tool skills is one of the things that makes building so enjoyable. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
jfmckenna wrote: I actually do the opposite of what BradHall suggested. Rather then take off the ends I take out the middle and create a slight 'spring joint' and then run the blade across the whole piece and it comes out perfect. But I think you really have to find out what works best for your style. I was never taught how to do this so I just kind of figured out what works and I always tend to enter and exit hard so getting the middle low first works for me. I'll just mention it again but the very first guitar I built many many years ago I tried to sand the joint like in Sloane's book with sand paper attached to a level. I think I must have spent 2 hours on the darn thing when I finally decided to just try and use a plane. It was done in minutes. I really think using sand paper makes it harder. This is how I was taught. I have hand planned all my top/back joints since I started. I have a Record #7, not a great plane, but it is flat and I upgraded the blade. Hand planning does take practice, but it gets easier. I can now plan most joints in 1-2 minutes once my plane is set. If anyone cares to see my method you can find it in a video I put together here. I'm not sure how to get the video to show in the post. https://youtu.be/hZ3Ev2YFShk |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
jfmckenna wrote: If it's taking you an hour to join a top then something is wrong. I usually get it right in about 10 minutes. If it takes me longer then I do something else and come back to it, perhaps disassemble the plane and sharpen it. Yep, sometimes it is a breeze and others a bit more of a struggle. If it is not going right, check the plane setup and sharpness as you suggest but also check the hold down method. I sometimes find that getting the plate secure is overlooked but important to being able to take a good stroke. Plane set-up and sharpness is very important though. I once did a joint with a block plane because it was my sharpest blade at the time. But. . . the longer the plane the easier. |
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| Author: | George L [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
At this point (12 guitars) I'm guessing it takes me maybe 15-20 minutes. Not an hour, but not lickety-split either. Just offering some perspective for anyone reading the "one or two passes" comments and feeling inadequate. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") As Bryan noted above, getting the hold down right is an oft overlooked factor. I plan to make some modifications to my shooting board before my next plate jointing session. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I was using a fairly well setup Stanley #4 with a Hock blade with success, typically 5 to 10 minutes to get a decent join. This is a real game changer Veritas "Shooting board" plane with the PVM-11 blade. Takes about a minute. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
A good shooting board (more of a joining board in this setting) makes it go better, no matter what plane is used. And the longer planes do make the joint easier to fit IF it is set up right. Plane setup and blade sharpness are critical. All of that said, if a planed joint doesn't come easily, for whatever reason, then a sanded joint that fits tight is fine. |
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| Author: | Robert Lak [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
Thanks for all the comments!! The ones that resonate for me... "I would also be afraid of the glue line showing more on spruce when you sand." and... "I favor using a plane because it seems to leave a cleaner surface, with less chance of a visible glue line," - I know when we joined the top, we never really could tell where the joint was. It was all but invisible... I think that's important. "A good shooting board (more of a joining board in this setting) makes it go better, no matter what plane is used". - I didn't use a real shooting board, just some boards clamped together which probably is fine when you get used to it, but i think i struggled a bit feeling secure. I tend to remember (Gosh it's been almost 2 years ago now!) thinking the boards shifted a bit, maybe there were some clamps in the way... not sure any longer but i do think a formal shooting board will be nice. I plan to make one. I think the shooting plane is nice, but I wouldn't have enough use to justify it. "I've done all of my joining for over forty years with Record #4; a 'smoothing' plane." - Alan is that what you had me use? When i went shopping, and hefted the 5 1/2 WoodRiver Jack at 7 lbs... it was like nothing i have ever seen before. "for the most part, the 'affordable' planes you can buy are pretty much just plane kits". - That was actually one of the talking points the salesman used in regards to the WoodRiver... that it was not a kit. I watched some reviews online and there was some basic, onetime setup needed but it did not seem like it would be much. At half the price it seems attractive. So after reading these, i am definitely sticking with the plane joint. My thoughts at this point are that i will likely go with the Wood River 5 1/2 with a sole of nearly 15" it would seem that that should work well, especially if i make a quality shooting board. My one concern is it's weight, but like everything else, you learn to adjust to what you have. I thought a little about a low angle jack, to be a little more versatile, but the thought of swapping blades out puts me off. I'd rather buy another plane if i need it. I am also looking at the WoodRiver low angle block plane. I think i can get away with these two. My main reason for the 5 1/2 jack is for thicknessing. The plane I used at Al's took forever and I had aches in my arms and back for days after planing that ziricote. Al is actually quite buff and made it look easy. 
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
For me, a heavier plane is good. It rides more smoothly, is less likely to chatter, and makes a better surface. When it's sharp (I use fine sandpapers glued to a glass plate), the plane does all of the work. My #4 Wood river requires much less effort than my well-setup #4 Stanley. It doesn't come sharp enough--You have to sharpen it out of the box. My Woodriver #4 was dead flat new. I had to flatten the sole on the #6 when I got it. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
We did use the old #4. That ziricote was some hard wood. I would not consider myself 'buff' any more (you should have seen me after the summer of hauling trash...), but I am more in practice than most of my students. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
Clinchriver wrote: I was using a fairly well setup Stanley #4 with a Hock blade with success, typically 5 to 10 minutes to get a decent join. This is a real game changer Veritas "Shooting board" plane with the PVM-11 blade. Takes about a minute. Plane Envy. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
Don Williams wrote: Plane Envy. That's quite the complex. . . 
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
Don Williams wrote: Clinchriver wrote: I was using a fairly well setup Stanley #4 with a Hock blade with success, typically 5 to 10 minutes to get a decent join. This is a real game changer Veritas "Shooting board" plane with the PVM-11 blade. Takes about a minute. Plane Envy. I've had my hands on that particular plane and it is very nice. Envy noted and seconded 
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| Author: | dpetrzelka [ Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sanded vs planed glue edge? |
I've had great luck shooting the joint with a low angle jack plane - good stability, but short enough I can spring the joint if needed.  The setup isn't as fancy, but gets the job done. |
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