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Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
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Author:  patch [ Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
I’ve French polished shellac on 20 guitars, it’s my favorite finish but I want to find an oil that I can use instead sometimes. Hopefully something that is a little quicker of a process and more forgiving. I’m trying out Birchwood Casey’s Tru Oil now. I like it but it seems and smells really toxic and I’d like to find an alternative. Was reading about Tried and True and it sounds like people are having mixed results.

Any suggestions?
Author:  bftobin [ Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Tung oil works. Even the polymerized version with dryers is not really toxic, although you shouldn't use
on 'food safe' items like cutting boards in the kitchen. I use it mostly on necks. You can build it to a pretty
glossy finish.

Brent
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
If you can get your hands on it, Kevin Aram has a very thorough article in the most recent American Lutherie issue. He uses Liberon Finishing Oil. The big difference is in prep - he goes way beyond where you would stop before french polishing with shellac - up to something like 1200 in micromesh. He then only uses 2 coats of oil on Rosewood - the surface is already almost burnished.
Author:  patch [ Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Thanks,

Brett, I've been wondering about Tung oil, I ought to just get some and start testing it out.

Jim, I use to get American Lutherie, I wish I still did. I'm going to look into that too. The draw back I can see is that on the guitars I'd like to use oil on often are dyed with some kind of color or burst that I do with an alcohol dye. I wonder if the dye would raise the grain too much. Worth experimenting with.
Author:  James Orr [ Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Jim Kirby wrote:
If you can get your hands on it, Kevin Aram has a very thorough article in the most recent American Lutherie issue. He uses Liberon Finishing Oil. The big difference is in prep - he goes way beyond where you would stop before french polishing with shellac - up to something like 1200 in micromesh. He then only uses 2 coats of oil on Rosewood - the surface is already almost burnished.


I was just reading his article this morning and wanted to suggest it to. [THUMBS UP SIGN]
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
If you think Tru oil is toxic you're really going to like the Liberon. Forget it, it's absolutely laced with solvents, it has a drier and probably contains a urethane. I'm fully aware of what Aram does but don't be under the impression that it's going to offer a lot of protection. It simply cannot do that given just how thin the finish is, so thin that it can only be measured by NASA. The result is a nice looking finish, partly because the wood is taken to a very high grit and of course there's nothing quite like oil placed directly on to wood.
Tru oil is linseed oil. It probably consists of an alkyd resin, itself made from oil (perhaps the 'modified oil' bit in the MSDS). Just think of it as a thin oil varnish. It has a drier just like any other modern oil varnish. There's not a lot toxic about it. Maybe the drier but that's in solution, it's also a tiny amount. If you cut back wet then it's even safer. In respect of that I'd put Tru oil as one of the least toxic oil/oil modern varnish finishes. Wear gloves if you are worried. I brush the stuff on but that's for fast build reasons. I can get a full gloss finish in less than a couple of days but I do have the advantage of a UV cabinet. Eventually it gets reasonably hard and durable if you give it a few months. I have these comparative samples (done on ebony) between a few of these finishes. One of them does include the Liberon, there's also a Danish oil (with resin) and an old fashioned Copal oil varnish. Too early to say but after a month the Tru oil does not seem any softer than any of the others, in fact it might end up being a touch harder. None of these are bomb proof. If you are looking for a truly glass hard finish, look elsewhere. They all have the advantage of being oil though, oil and wood grain go together such that it's a combination that is hard to beat - all that index of refraction stuff. Don't dismiss these finishes as being easy and for beginners. It's the final result that is important.
Pure Tung oil (not the tung oil finish) would take an awful lot of coats to build. It's just a drying oil, similar to linseed or walnut. I think Tried and True is in the same category, just polymerised oil, no resin as far as I'm aware. There's no resin content to help build the finish and give a harder surface. Don't expect fireworks, they are non toxic without doubt.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Quote:
I like it but it seems and smells really toxic


TruOil smells toxic? You have to be kidding. What does TOXIC smell like? Hydrogen cyanide is very toxic, yet smells like sweet almonds.

Of all the chemicals sometimes used in instrument building and repair, you complain about TruOil? You must be VERY sensitive to odors. Suggest you have someone else finish your guitars.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Toxicity is so relative.

The only 'finish' I can think of off the top of my head that is not toxic is water colors, and that of course is not a real finish.

The point being, different strokes for different folks...some people, myself for example, react more negatively to heavy fumes of oil based finishes compared to lacquers...I believe lacquers are more toxic, but for whatever reason the oil based stuff annoys me more.

The solution of course, realizing that most all finishes (if not all) are toxic, is to use a respirator when applying them and appropriate gloves when using them...by appropriate I mean ones that are rated for the solvents you are using as latex gloves only stop certain ones, the same with nitril, etc...I'm not greatly religious about my worries about handling such things...I have no great qualms about using some lacquer thinner or acetone to clean junk off my hands now and again...or reaching into a pot of thinner to retrieve my spray nozzle after putting it in it between coats during a spray session...but if I'm doing lots of work with solvents I'll wear appropriate gloves, and a respirator if needed, including going up to heavy chemical gloves if necessary...and of course I'll always trim my beard (or totally remove it) so that a respirator functions properly (e.g. seals against my face) when I'm using one.
Author:  patch [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
I definitely wear gloves and a mask it’s just that with having a one room shop the Tru oil smell dominates the room afterwards even with doors and windows open. My day job is building furniture and cabinets for a designer, I use OSMO PolyX on basically everything and have for years. I like it, yes being in the room too much though gives me a headache. I haven’t tried it on a guitar because I had read a few people mention that it really gets into the wood and hardens, which is great for furniture but not so great for a top or back of a guitar.

Michael N - Yea, after thinking about Aram’s method I wanted more protection from the finish than what he is doing. I would wonder how his finish looks after a few years.

Mike P - It’s definitely relative. After years of working with Walnut one day a few months ago I became really allergic to it. I have to wear a mask the entire time I’m in the shop working with it and deep clean the shop afterwards. 8 hours in a mask sucks.

Chris Pile - Why bother spending the energy typing if you aren’t going to add anything to the conversation? I see responses like yours around here, though a lot less since a few people have left, and it’s one of the reasons I barely look at OLF anymore.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
I haven't used Tru oil very much. The first time I tried it was some 15 years ago, maybe longer. As soon as I opened the bottle the first thing that came to my mind was: linseed. That's before I knew what was in the stuff. As finishes go it's relatively benign. Perhaps it's because you don't like the odour, rather than it being a strong chemical type smell. I'm the same with tung oil, I don't like the odour so I tend to stay away from finishes that contain it. Linseed based finishes are quite the opposite for me, I don't mind them at all. Of course there is always a chance that you might be allergic to one of the ingredients.
The Liberon I won't buy again. It obviously contains tung oil but it also has a very high proportion of petroleum solvents. Not a nice combination as far as I'm concerned. Linseed and genuine gum turps on the other hand might be my ideal.
Author:  ernie [ Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Shalom Patch here is my spin on finishes .I/ve tried them all laquer , shellac ,cabinetmakers varnish,tung oil, linseed oil, vlnmakers oil varnish wax etc, they all have their virtues an downsides, Just bought some tru-oil 2 weeks ago to refinish 2 uke tops. It leaves a very nice finish that looks natural , easy to apply, looks good . without much shine .Most of the youtube videos show folks buffing out with 0000 steel wool or white synthetic. I put on 5 thin coats and buffed out with 400, 800, and 3000 grit bufflex pads from amazon,It leaves a vy soft matt type finish. It is sensitive to humidity IMHO. it all boils down to several factors your shop, your tools, your time your $$, your exposure to solvents and the look or appearance you are after. Another option is longevity and repairability .Some of the fancy shmancy new finishes are difficult to repair , refinish or touch up.
Author:  John J [ Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
One more opinion from a relative newbie. My tenth build and I've gone from Tru oil to royal lac and now back to Tru oil. With my small workspace I also needed something hand applied. I usually do 12-15 thin coats. Lightly use synthetic 0000 between each and that's it. Works for me.
Author:  Colin North [ Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
That's nice John.
Mind me asking what are you using for porefill, and how high do you go for your prep sanding?
Author:  John J [ Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Thanks Colin. I've been using zpoxy for pore filling. Still getting the hang of it. For prep I sand to 320. I also do a shellac seal coat on the top prior to the Tru oil.
Author:  patch [ Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Thanks again for your input!

I do like how easy it is to use Tru oil and it’s lookin like once it hardens it is going to be a good protective finish. Something I like too is that is doesn’t seem to push color around like shellac does, I’m thinking maybe that has to do with that I’m using alcohol based dye and the alcohol in the shellac is what is causing that. Anyway the more I’ve looked around and from what I’ve read on here it seems worth trying to figure out how to make it work in my shop. I’m looking into ventilation systems now, which is a much needed upgrade to my shop anyway.

John J - That’s a great looking guitar! And a great looking finish!
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Can't you do it outdoors? If you are wiping it on it only takes 5 minutes or so.
I pretty much hate sanding, so when I was making a neck recently I had a smart idea. I did all the work indoors that involved drawknife, spokeshave and double beveled knife. I then took the neck outdoors to sand it by hand. What a pleasant experience it was compared to sanding indoors (the light was very good too, another bonus). I probably spent around 10 minutes, that's it. It's getting a bit chilly here as well. It's only really a problem when it rains. if I had a car port or garage I'd make a mini bench on wheels, do more of the work in the great outdoors.
You shouldn't have problems with dust if wiping it on, even outdoors. I brush it on and I have to take measures to keep the dust down.
Author:  klooker [ Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
I bought some Tried & True to try on cutting boards.
Attachment:
Tried&True.jpg


Only did a couple of coats which just started to bring up a soft glow.

It may be non-toxic but it stinks like linseed oil for a long time - as in a couple of months.

I haven't tested the durability because I've been waiting for the smell to go away before putting into service.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
I too have been using Tru Oil (although I French Polish the tops). I love it on necks, as from a players point of view it is very comfortable.. I will use Tru Oil on all necks i make for myself for sure. I like it on the back and sides as well. I find only the first couple coats have a strong odor, then the rest of the coats do not seem bad at all. easy to apply, and the finish is great. I have mostly used Z-poxy to fill, but on my last 2 I tried Aqua Coat (Mainly because i did hand rubbed bursts on the back and sides, and seemed Z-poxy didn't look as accommodating. The Aqua Coat went on real easy, no smell, no mess, very little sanding required given how easy it goes on. So far, it looks good. For Z-poxy, you def want a shellac layer between the SZ-poxy and the tru oil.

Glenn
Author:  patch [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Michael N - I can work outdoors during the summer months but I’m at 7000 feet so when winter gets here it’s too cold. But yea, I agree, I’ll use any chance I can to work outside.

Klooker - Thanks, I don’t want to deal with something that stinks for months, thanks for the warning.

Glenn - Did you do a layer of shellac between the Aqua Coat and Tru oil? I haven’t tried Aqua Coat but am interested.

Thanks all!
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Aqua coat has a rather strong acrylic type smell. I bought it, tried it once, not for me. No better than many other pore fillers and doesn't exactly do anything for the grain. Not that a pore filler should but some do.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
patch wrote:
Glenn - Did you do a layer of shellac between the Aqua Coat and Tru oil? I haven’t tried Aqua Coat but am interested.

Thanks all!


I did. I always do a shellac layer before i use tru oil. i had read that some folks had issues with Z-poxy and tru oil on top. with the shellac layer, i have not had any issues.

I did not find Aqua coat to have a strong odor at all. I will use it again whenever doing hand rubbed sunbursts (or any dye work).

Glenn
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
I like it but it seems and smells really toxic


TruOil smells toxic?


What do you think about nail polish remover? (i.e., laquer thinner. Amazing what they can sell in cosmetics that draws attention at larger scale.)
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
John J wrote:
One more opinion from a relative newbie. My tenth build and I've gone from Tru oil to royal lac and now back to Tru oil. With my small workspace I also needed something hand applied. I usually do 12-15 thin coats. Lightly use synthetic 0000 between each and that's it. Works for me.


John,

I'm curious since I'm about to do a few projects with Royal Lac (my first tries with it.) What made you go back to Tru oil after trying the Royal Lac?

I typically finish all my guitars using conventional french polishing with unadulterated shellac, and I love the process as I can do it in the living room while watching movies. The lure of more short-term durability in finishes is obvious, and the reason for trying the Royal Lac on the next few finishes. But it does smell different, and I'm not sure I'd be doing it in the living room.

Smell and other solvent expressions are a biggy to me. I turned down my first commission from a working guitarist because he wanted lacquer on the backs and sides. Not going there.
Author:  John J [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Jim
I'm sure I'll give the Royal lac another try. I just was not happy with my result. Just need more practice. It seemed the Tru oil was a fairly forgiving finish and I seem to have that technique down. Both the Royal lac and Tru oil's odor don't bother me. Spray shellac and nitro I can't stand.
The Tru oil seems pretty durable to me.

John j
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a good non toxic oil for finishing
Thanks John,

I have a bottle of Tru Oil in the cupboard, but I've never tried it. It would be easy to try everything, harder to put in the time to perfect the process with everything, Maybe some day, before it hardens in the bottle.

I've never sprayed shellac. Not sure what I would expect from that.
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