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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:29 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:48 pm
Posts: 7
First name: Etienne
Last Name: Silvestre
City: York
State: North Yorkshire
Zip/Postal Code: Yo302da
Country: England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hi everyone. I'm posting to you today because I recently finished building my first two steel string acoustic guitars, which turned out much better than I could have hoped thanks to much help and support from this group and others, but I still have much to learn. So this is why today I have come to ask if anyone here, or if you know of any luthiers, who would be willing to take me on and teach me what you have learned over the years. So far I have only built two steel string guitars and 3 ukuleles but I would be more than happy to learn how to build other acoustic guitar types as I believe that the knowledge of many things makes for a better understanding of each individual component. I am currently in France (I'm fluent in both French and English), though I am willing to travel anywhere in the world to learn and I certainly don't wish to be paid, the knowledge you can share with me would be payment enough. If you are willing to teach and share with me your techniques and understanding of acoustic guitar making, or if you want to ask me any questions then please either send me a private message or email me at etienne_silvestre@hotmail.co.uk .

And here is a link to my Facebook page if you wish to see the acoustics that I have built to get an idea of what I'm capable of: https://www.facebook.com/positivevibrationsacoustics

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Positive Vibrations Acoustics: sharing nature's voice through the crafting of hand made guitars and ukuleles


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:36 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 2712
First name: ernest
Last Name: kleinman
City: lee's summit
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 64081
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Bonjour Etienne, I would suggest trying to find a job working at a shop doing repairs/building/ Learning your luthier skills is great. But learning to run a business is extremely helpful. You would be very surprised at how many great luthiers succumbed to poverty and low wages that hurt them and their families . These financial considerations are sadly not discussed , but are important to your long term well being ,unless you are rich and independently well off. Bon chance.MY 2 cents worth of opinion. Also it wouldn/t hurt your indpendent studies to venture into the study of violin/ bow making which can be more lucrative. and expand your repertoire of luthier skills



These users thanked the author ernie for the post: Etiennes246 (Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:59 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:52 am 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:51 pm
Posts: 1201
First name: Chris
Last Name: Ensor
City: Springfield
State: Missouri
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Sergei de Jonge:
http://www.dejongelutherie.com/course.html

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ELEVATE || Next Level Lutherie
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http://ensorguitars.com



These users thanked the author Chris Ensor for the post: Etiennes246 (Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:59 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:29 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Some good stuff here:

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45044&hilit=living+the+dream

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/



These users thanked the author kencierp for the post: Etiennes246 (Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:59 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:09 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:31 am
Posts: 219
First name: Bob
Last Name: Orr
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hi I have had a look at your Facebook link and wonder what else you want to learn. Those look like damned fine guitars and ukes to me! Very clean work. Cheers, Bob



These users thanked the author Bob Orr for the post: Etiennes246 (Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:12 am)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:22 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:48 pm
Posts: 7
First name: Etienne
Last Name: Silvestre
City: York
State: North Yorkshire
Zip/Postal Code: Yo302da
Country: England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hi guys, thanks for the replys, advice and links, it's very helpful and eye opening to what's in store but it just makes me more impatient to get going. ;)

Chris, I'm afraid I don't have enough money to pay for a lutherie course which is why I'm looking for someone willing to take me on without expecting to be paid, but thanks anyway. :)

And Bob, thanks for the compliment but there is always more to learn and things that can be improved, new techniques and methods to go faster and be more efficient, this is why I wish to learn from someone with experience.

Thanks again guys and anymore comments and advice are most welcome. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:28 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 3081
Well, that pretty much leaves the best option for last. Learn what you can from the forum. Take what appeals to you and disregard the rest. I learned everything the hard way, as there were no forums, few books and tools. Jigs were handmade along with molds and everything else.

You learn by "feel" which is the best way and your experience guides you. You make very small changes instrument by instrument and don't make wild swings in building unless, you are down a wrong fork in the road and need to back up and try a different course.

Those figuring on shortcuts by learning all the "secrets" of others usually find that they cannot duplicate the original builder anyway. What your goal should be from the start is to find your own tone. There is no perfect tone and your tone is developed by you and ends up appealing to you. What makes you happy will make customers that like your style and tone happy too. Just building another martin won't do it these days. There are walls and walls of Martins in stores.

Too make a really fine instrument, there are no shortcuts. The way is trial and experience. There-in lies the joy...
Sorry I couldn't see your photos, but I don't Face.... or Twit. Would be good to learn to post them on this site if you would like critique.

Good luck!



These users thanked the author Haans for the post (total 2): Clinchriver (Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:22 pm) • Etiennes246 (Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:31 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:33 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 980
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
The thing is, as a beginner you don't really have anything to offer the luthier who would be teaching you. Guitar making isn't like bricklaying, where you can offer valuable manual labor on the building site in exchange for knowledge and skill. There are very few tasks that a skilled luthier can entrust to an unskilled person to perform without supervision. And by stopping their work 20 times a day to teach you things or correct what you are doing, they will be compromising their ability to make a living.

It is very laudable that you wish to learn from those who have mastered certain skills, but you should expect to pay them for their time. Why would they work for free?

There are a myriad of skilled luthiers who offer courses or classes; get a job, save some money and use it to go study with one of them.

Alternatively, if you already possess skills in another area, you may be able to find a luthier willing do a trade of labour.

But really, there is no such thing as a free lunch and you shouldn't expect people to spend their time teaching you hard-won skills without adequate compensation.

The good news is you've already built two guitars and you are on your way to acquiring the skills and knowledge in basically the same way that the "masters" out there did - by hard work, dedication, careful thought and trial and error! So keep going, you are already on your way :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



These users thanked the author joshnothing for the post: Etiennes246 (Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:54 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:06 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:48 pm
Posts: 7
First name: Etienne
Last Name: Silvestre
City: York
State: North Yorkshire
Zip/Postal Code: Yo302da
Country: England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Thanks for your comments guys, I completely understand what you mean that many of the master luthiers started in the same situation as me and its with persistence and time that they gained experience and became the amazing craftsmen they are today.

I understand too that the kind of help and knowledge I am asking for cannot come for free, but I don't think that I have nothing to offer in return. I have roughly 10 years of experience in cabinet making and joinery (I'm 24) and having had the luck to have worked with some world class cabinet makers including two silver medalists in the world trade olympics, one of who was my mentor during my apprenticeship, I don't believe what I am asking is an empty handed offer. I know that lutherie is not cabinet making but if you have looked at my Facebook page I think it is clear that I am capable of giving in return. But I understand that it is hard to take someone on without being paid for your time, so we shall see where this road takes me and if I must I think that time and patience will allow me to acquire the knowledge that I am looking for.

Thanks again for your comments guys and any more are most welcome.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:01 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13079
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Hi there Etienne:

We run a very busy and successful Lutherie shop in Ann Arbor, Michigan. We are not a music store and elected to avoid that and only do repair work.

Both my business partner and I have built a lot of guitars but neither of us is keen to build anymore. Instead we focus on repair work AND teaching mini-classes that help bridge the gap between builders and the human interface aspects of the instrument, fretwork, nuts and saddles, the physics of how the instrument works and what a perfect set-up is and how to accomplish it with a structured, sequential method.

We are asked likely weekly to take on apprentices and are not keen to do so at present and I wanted to let you know why so that your pitch might address this in the future and perhaps increase your success level AND the value that you bring to the table.

Ultimately your ability to secure the gig that you desire will be contingent on the value that you can bring to the table.

We have had an apprentice two summers now, the same individual and he is considered one of the most talented woodworkers in the states. He studied with Krenoff and was personal friends with him too.

Our apprentice was a great experience for us and we believe that he enjoyed it too in so much as he always wants to come back and we would love to have him back any time.

But this is not usually how it can go..... Instead it's often the case that there is little in the way of value-add coming from the apprentice initially unless they have existing Lutherie chops and can do billable work when asked AND can be trusted not to damage things....

Typically the Luthier or one of the principals has to spend a great deal of time with the apprentice showing them things. This has an "opportunity cost" on the business in so much as the teaching Luthier now is not doing billable work. It can also dramatically change the finances of a business to the negative....

You have to have something to offer since the cost that the Luthier will bear is great and needs to be countered at least pretty quickly by what you can bring to the business/table.

A misnomer that can even offend some of the hobbyist's here who like to call themselves Luthiers is that Lutherie is FAR more than woodworking..... Since the term "Luthier" includes builders and repair folks although all too nonspecific for some of us the term Luthier does not in any way in the US indicate a level of earned, vetted, and certified expertise and ability. It's simply a claim that anyone can make who dares to put themselves in the precarious position of having the ability to destroy the valuable personal property of others.... often....

Kind of a different take on this....eh....

Anyway long story short if this is indeed your dream occupation I would recommend going to a quality Lutherie school such as the Galloup school. Since we have dozens of folks asking us to to apprentice the ones with a formal Lutherie education will always come to the top of our list. We can also vet them with their instructors at the school that they attended. My business partner David Collins was a Lutherie instructor at the Galloup school as well and he got his start in the trade at that very school. His formal education and his ability got him a professional Luthier gig at a respected shop and then led to David owning his own businesses. Formal Lutherie education is highly recommended! I also know other folks who went to the Galloup school and now work in the trade.

Be mindful of the concept of "opportunity costs" in your approach to apprenticing and your goal is to reduce the likely opportunity costs of taking you on to the targeted Luthier and be in a position to enunciate this "value-add" that you bring to the table in the fewest, simplest words..... Or, what can you do for me lately!

When you have enough value to add to a business your story will resonate far more than when you are an unknown and just one of hundreds who has the same dream. A quality Lutherie education, again highly recommended... sets some folks apart for us and likely others too.

Most of the time the money is not great and the trade is very subject to the ups and downs of the economy as well. People do not spend their disposable income on a Luthier if they don't have any disposable income..... If you are very good though and know a few things about business too.... you can do pretty well but it takes time to develop the positive reputation.

So why then do we even do this Lutherie madness thing? Because we love it or love guitars or something like that that. We also may not be the brightest bulbs in the pack either to want to be a Luthier when I use the term as a working in the trade Luthier.....;) Nonetheless a passion for one's profession is priceless and it can be a dream job for some of us. It most certain is for me most days.

The best advice that I can give you is regardless of how difficult it may be for you to afford attending a quality Lutherie school find a way to make it happen. I once sold Catalina yachts in a town with no water to put myself through university.... I graduated owning a custom built home and having no college debt. My first guitar was built in the kitchen of a Residence Inn in Sunnyvale California where I lived half the year for my work.... My second guitar was built in a spare bathroom in my condo.... It can be done if you are capable of putting blinders on and being hell bent on your dream. I'll add that I've only been a Luthier now for just short of 12 years. Most of my life I worked for corporations in the tech sector or defense sector. My ability to finance my learning was very helpful to me and in my case Lutherie was more of a retirement gig than a life long occupation. It also was baptism by fire for me when I started being a Luthier full time in so much as at one point I was doing repair work for my own business AND other entities such as busy music stores. Repetition served me very well because basically I'm likely stupid....:)

To be clear we are not a prospect for you but I did want to give you the perspective of the guy on the other side of the conference table/work bench, a hiring Luthier. Ultimately it will be all about what you can bring to the table AND a verifiable, quality, structured Lutherie education is one of the best ways IME to separate yourself from the rest of the very considerable... pack.

The best of luck to you.

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These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Lonnie J Barber (Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:32 pm)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:43 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:48 pm
Posts: 7
First name: Etienne
Last Name: Silvestre
City: York
State: North Yorkshire
Zip/Postal Code: Yo302da
Country: England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hi Hesh,

Thanks very much for your message, what you say is completely understandable it's given me another perspective on the situation. But I still believe that there is hope for finding someone willing to take me on. I went to show my work to a luthier not far from where I'm staying today who gave me the contact details of several luthiers around Europe who might be willing to take me on for a short period. So I will contact them and we will see how it plays out.

Thanks again everyone for your comments and advice it's all been very helpful and informative.

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Positive Vibrations Acoustics: sharing nature's voice through the crafting of hand made guitars and ukuleles


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:32 pm 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:59 am
Posts: 675
First name: Eric
Last Name: Reid
City: Ben Lomond
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 95005
Country: USA
Status: Professional
Etiennes--Check your private messages.



These users thanked the author Eric Reid for the post: Etiennes246 (Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:54 pm)
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