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Change of Plans - Tenor
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=47913		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Change of Plans - Tenor
I was building one of my small oak parlor guitars when I cracked the sides pretty bad in bending them. This oak is very old, probably about 90 - 100 years and is hard as nails and I think more brittle then normal. The side split but I wanted to salvage it so now instead of a 4in depth I will settle on 3.5. It will change the dynamics of the guitar a lot. But then I saw a pic of a tenor guitar and thought... That's what I will do! I've seen these guitars befor but kind of thought they were sort of a quirky fad type guitar back in the day but after listing to some really good players I now have to have one.

Anyway has anyone ever built one? My parlor guitar fits almost the same size as a Martin 5 style guitar, except thinner. I'm wondering what the string spacing for the nut and saddle is on these instruments? I guess it would be proportional to a 6 string, just remove two strings but I don't know. I understand too that Tenor's have short scales, like 23in or less. My parlor is designed for 24.3 so I could just cut off a bit.

I imagine the top could be braced lighter than a 6 string as well.

Anyway if anyone has any advice, tips, suggestions I'd be happy to hear it.

I have not closed the box yet.

Image
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
I guess that since you have already placed the bracing and bridge plate you will have to work out your scale length design backwards. You'll have to figure out what length will put you at a fret line at the body join (assuming that is important to you, it really doesn't matter other than people are used to seeing that). You will have some wiggle room on the bridge side as long as the x crosses the bridge and the pins stay on the plate. But going from 24.3 to 23 takes 1.3 ish inches off the neck length. I assume your parlor is already a 12 fret design so you would be looking at losing a good deal of those high frets. That may not be a problem but it needs to be considered in the plan.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
Yeah I guess I could make a compromise like settling on a 23.8in scale or something. That should give me enough room on the bridge plate to still join at the 12th. Not sure how important the scale length is to the tone on a tenor though?
Author:  J De Rocher [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
For what it's worth, a Martin 5-17T has a 23" scale and a Gibson TG-0 has a 22 3/4" scale.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
Since you haven't closed the box, you could add a piece to the front of the bridge plate and move the bridge forward. Since you are only doing 4 strings you don't need the room between the X for 6. This should help with the shorter scale length / neck to body fret.
I have built a few tenors (usually double strung) and like the shorter scale (21 1/2 in.) but if you tune CGDA as typically done 23 also works well. Tenor guitars were made so people who played tenor banjo could double on guitar, so you can study the banjos for string spacings , scale lengths, etc..
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
Normal tenor guitars are 4 strings...
Do you mean a Terz guitar which will have a short 21 or 22" scale, 6 strings, and be tuned up to G or thereabouts.

Or... You could just stick with the guitar you were planning and have the body 1/2" shallower. It's not really going to change the dynamics of the normal guitar that much.
Author:  rlrhett [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
I don't have the deep scientific understanding that others do, and I get that 1/2" shallower means a different main body resonance, but my sense is that the difference isn't that great. I've build deeper and shallower guitars and not noticed a strong correlation between the sounds and the depth. I'm talking guitars that are 4.5" down to 3".

If you WANT to build a tenor, then by all means. I don't think your body depth forces you to. You could build as planned and have a fine sounding guitar.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
I just used the shallower depth as an excuse :)

I thought a half inch would make a noticeable difference, perhaps not. I am however trying to build these all the same so that I can really narrow them down and get consistent from guitar to guitar. I am building two now, one going out on commission and one just because I like to build two at a time. The one that broke was the secondary one thankfully. The idea of making it a tenor just popped into my head. After some research I see that there was also once a guitar known as a Plectrum Guitar that has 4 strings and a long scale. So maybe I will use my normal scale length and just call it a Tentrum or Plector guitar ;)
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
"So maybe I will use my normal scale length and just call it a Tentrum or Plector guitar ;)"

My suggestion would be to go with the shorter scale, or build it as a 6 string. Tenors, being tuned in fifths, tend to have spread out chord shapes which can be quite a stretch at longer scales. 24.3 might be O.K., and some people do tune tenors like the 4 high strings of a 6 string (DGbe) so there are all kinds of possibilities.
I built a 4 string tuned in fifths with a 27 inch scale length and baritone tuning on a large body and it sounded fine. My son , who plays electric bass guitar, likes playing it. Unusual scale lengths and tunings can find their adherents, so if you build it they will come! bliss
Author:  profchris [ Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
I recently built myself a tenor with a 21 inch scale, and tuned in 5ths found some stretches quite demanding. Mind you I mainly play soprano uke ... I could have learnt to stretch I guess, but 24+ ins might have defeated me.

The guitar is now in Chicago tuning, dgbe, and I'm more comfortable.
Author:  unkabob [ Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
This may just be a matter of wording but it sounds like a long-scale baritone ukulele to me. I built a 3/4 guitar (23" SCALE) and strung it with four nylon strings tuned DGBE, baritone ukulele, and it sounded good.

Just another point of view.

Bob :ugeek:
Author:  Mark Mc [ Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
Were you originally planning for this to have 14 frets to the body, or 12? If it was to be 14 you could make it a shorter scale length (e.g. 23") with a 13th fret join. This will mean that the bridge lands in about the same place as a 14-fret standard scale length. I recently did this to make a tenor guitar from a 14-fret Gibson L-00 plan. You can also compensate for a short scale on a standard neck by using a zero fret, which will move the nut a bit further away from the body. Tenor guitars typically have a nut width of about 1 and 1/4 inch (32mm).
Author:  jfmckenna [ Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
It was originally a 12 fret design. I like the idea of a zero fret that could give me as much as 1/8in. I think I like the idea of tuning in 5ths best but I never thought about the stretch that would be on the long scale.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
In round numbers, to go from a 24 inch scale to a 23 the bridge only has to move forward a 1/2 inch to keep it a 12 fret. Since you only need space between the X for four pins instead of 6, I would think it would be doable. Or you could make a pinless bridge if the X is too close.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
Clay S. wrote:
In round numbers, to go from a 24 inch scale to a 23 the bridge only has to move forward a 1/2 inch to keep it a 12 fret. Since you only need space between the X for four pins instead of 6, I would think it would be doable. Or you could make a pinless bridge if the X is too close.


That's a good point about only needing space between the X for 4 strings! Though moving the bridge up further would make the X cross more toward the back than the front corners. I'm not sure exactly what the ramifications of that would be on the tone. Maybe like when Martin shifted the bracing back? I suppose with only 4 strings you could lighten up the bracing and even the top to compensate.
Author:  IanC [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
I've made a couple of these. I first heard about them from a local musician Will Fly, made one for him and he's put several videos on youtube. See:
http://www.ianchisholm.co.uk/wp/instrum ... or-guitar/
I use a scale length of 580mm (22.8", two frets shorter than a standard 650mm scale), the D'Addario tenor guitar string set and tune C G D A. The resulting tension makes for a very loud bright instrument, enormous fun to play, especially if you're used to tuning in 5ths. The CGDA tuning is the same as a viola, an octave above a cello. I'm currently building one for Richard Durrant who will be playing Bach cello music on it. He's an interesting player, classically trained but with a very eclectic attitude. I'll dig out some build photos and post them later.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
I'd love to see some build photo's IanC. I'm also curious to know your opinion on a longer scale for this instrument. Also where did you get those tuners? They look like Grover Imperial tuners, do you just buy 6 string sets and use 4 and save 2 for the next one? I was wondering if regular banjo ore Uke tuners would be good enough.
Author:  kwerry [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
Tenors are a fun guitar at least I think so. They are the only guitar I can really play. I've made about half a dozen.. Most of mine are tuned GDAE (octave below a mandolin) but CGDA is the traditional tuning for a tenor.. some call GDAE an Irish tuning...

Mine are usually in the 21-22" scale range I've used a Trez Body shape and some "regular" guitar body shapes scaled down buy about 88%

Here are some links to some of mine...

A friend playing one I made for him..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7v9rxejlOE&sns=fb

An Archtop Tenor
http://klwstrings.blogspot.ca/2016/01/done.html

And Another...
http://klwstrings.blogspot.ca/2015/03/done.html

Kerry
Author:  IanC [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
Pictures arrached of the current build in progress plus annotated front and back bracing from the last one I made. They're all sitka / walnut.
For CGDA tuning I'd worry about a longer scale length. That 580mm tuned to A corresponds to a normal scale length with top E tuned up to G. It feels very high tension but as long as the instrument can take it that gives a very rewarding sound in terms of volume and attack. Irish tuning - which I use on a tenor banjo - is another matter. I've never tried it but I'd expect a normal guitar scale length to work well - as long as you can cope with the stretch! There's a terrific youtube video of a couple of Breedlove tenors. They look pretty long scale to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvksC6RU_zI
There was a Selmer Maccaferri style tenor guitar, "The Eddie Freeman Special", which had a long scale but my understanding is that it used a re-entrant tuning and was intended solely for chord work. A lot of gypsy jazz style guitarists only ever use chords of 3 or 4 notes.
The tuners are Grovers. We were looking for a 30's vibe, hence the deco tuners and pyramid bridge. Yup, two left over, then I made another so now I have 4 ..
My current build is for Richard Durrant. I was expecting use those 4 spare tuners but he wants some silver inlay, doesn't fit with the "gold" Grovers. I'm thinking it's time I made a tenor for myself but that's the kind of project I never find time for. Still, at least I've got the tuners.
Can't find anything of Richard playing tenor guitar but here's what he can do with a banjo in the same tuning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NnITwDxr-s
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
"That's a good point about only needing space between the X for 4 strings! Though moving the bridge up further would make the X cross more toward the back than the front corners. I'm not sure exactly what the ramifications of that would be on the tone. Maybe like when Martin shifted the bracing back? I suppose with only 4 strings you could lighten up the bracing and even the top to compensate."

Generally that will "tighten up" the top a bit - give a stronger attack and a bit less sustain - not a bad thing for a tenor.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of Plans - Tenor
kwerry wrote:
Tenors are a fun guitar at least I think so. They are the only guitar I can really play. I've made about half a dozen.. Most of mine are tuned GDAE (octave below a mandolin) but CGDA is the traditional tuning for a tenor.. some call GDAE an Irish tuning...

Mine are usually in the 21-22" scale range I've used a Trez Body shape and some "regular" guitar body shapes scaled down buy about 88%

Here are some links to some of mine...

A friend playing one I made for him..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7v9rxejlOE&sns=fb

An Archtop Tenor
http://klwstrings.blogspot.ca/2016/01/done.html

And Another...
http://klwstrings.blogspot.ca/2015/03/done.html

Kerry


That's awesome, I love that tone and those tenor's are beautiful.

As it turns out someone found me who would rather I built this instrument up as a guitar, hey that works for me! But I definitely plan on building some of these in the future, I want one for myself.
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