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So I plan on trying Bias tape for the first time for side supports.

Hesh and Todd use to each have a tutorial however they have been deleted from the archives (sad).

So, can anyone else put a tutorial together for this. I'm sure it's pretty easy but I like to have a good idea of the steps before trying it out.

Thanks

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I believe it was soak in glue and apply.

I've only installed fabric side tapes 3 times, so I'm not ready to present an authoritative tutorial. I'd suggest you check out Todd Stock's and Alan Carruth's methods, which are presented over on the MIMF.

Here's what I learned by doing, if something less than a tutorial would be of use.

I found that I couldn't rely on fish glue to hold the tape tight until it set. HHG worked much better for me. Once you get the tape to stick, the main challenge is that once soaked with glue the tape stretches so its width can be a little uneven, and the glue can smear where you don't want it. This results in slight visual irregularities, which aren't functional problems, but it's nice to have the work look neat if people look inside the box. The solution I found to both problems, which I read later that Todd also uses, is to put masking tape on both sides of each place you plan to glue the cloth tape. Then apply the cloth tape, wipe up excess glue, and then pull up the masking tape. Keep an eye on the cloth tape for the next ten minutes to make sure it stays adhered to the sides; if it separates a little, squish it down with your finger. If appearance inside the box is important to you, practice on scrap first.

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"Never hurry, never rest."

Mine were never deleted, that's inaccurate. Mine were links from the OLF Toot section to my old Lenawee Lutherie web site where all my toots were hosted. Nearly 5 years ago now I closed that business and took down that site BUT before I did I posted on the OLF that the toots would being going away. I encouraged everyone and anyone to if they wished make a copy of anything for your own use and IIRC I gave a 30 day time frame before I trashed the web site.

I still have all my toots too and from the PMs that I receive so do lots of other folks which is exactly why I made them.

Anyway bias tape side supports are likely too simple an operation to even warrant a toot. You can use HHG or an appropriate white glue, I used Titebond sometimes and HHG other times.

Although historically speaking HHG is more correct white glue works fine and in some ways has an advantage or two.

As Tim said dip and stick and masking tape guides make clean-up and placement easy. Try to smooth out any bubbles or voids and this is where I found Titebond original watered down to be easier to use. HHG jells so very fast that any bubbles or areas that are not sticking well can and do jell if you don't move your arse fast enough. Either glue works great though!

The tapes go on before the linings and the linings are installed as usual only right smack over the tapes. Excess tape is sliced off when the glue dries with a razor blade.

Always prudent to review what the value of side tapes is. They are not structural supports in the sense of a brace and as such their true function is to arrest a traveling crack in the side from spreading. As a repair guy I can now attest that they work.... most of the time..... Many makers have used them through the years including Martin and G*bson.

The material is from a fabric store and called bias tape and it comes in all manner of Daisy Rock colors.... and you can even match the wood that you are using pretty closely if that flips your switch. Most of the stuff that I see around here has polyester in it and it will work but if you can find something suitable that is cotton that would be superior in terms soaking up glue. The polyester tends to repell the glue soak a bit where cotton will get saturated.

Here's a shot from my toot that still exists BTW I just have not had a place to put it for a while. On this one I used Titebond thinned down and the tape is now dry, linings come next after trimming the ends. There is another shot of one I did before I was using a masking tape "well" for positioning. Excess glue sands right off. Using tapes makes clean-up easier but glue can migrate under tape too and if this happens it sands right off.

We had this discussion a couple of years ago and someone mentioned that using HHG makes a buffet for insects. Because of that statement I have used Titebond thinned just a bit, applied with an artists brush and had no problems.

BY the way, I repaired an L-00 Gibson that had something that looked like cheesecloth used for these strips and they WORKED when a side split stopped right at one of them.

Ed

When we did the side tapes on my parlor guitar, I used dry bias tape pieces set into hot hide glue, with the excess glue and any air pockets removed with a hot, wet paper towel. The painters tape is used on each side of the tape to control where the glue goes. Being the stubborn person I am, I insisted on trying to apply a few tapes wet, which was more bother than doing it dry. The tapes were painted with shellac as a last step once the kerfings were in, but my handwritten notes say only that it is necessary to prevent biological attack if the guitar is stored in very warm, damp conditions.

The printed building guide I have been using has links to both of the tutorials mentioned in Mr. Allen's post. I am quite certain that Mr. Breakstone can provide a link to his own work, so I have included just the link to the Musical Instrument Makers Forum discussion.

http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3988

Good luck, Mr. True! Your work is stunning!

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I do these. Masking tape to protect from squeeze out, HHG on the wood, place bias tape and squeegee with old credit card. It is not hard to do before the HHG gels. When they are dry I like to put a coat of shellac on them. Easy.

Anytime I have trouble with HHG gelling before I'm ready (not a common occurrence), I have a steamer - just saying.

I use one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006MCMSW8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

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"Music is what feelings sound like"

I paint a stripe of HHG on the side where the tape will go, lay down a strip of dry tape, and then paint more glue over it. making sure to get the edges but not go over. Dab up any excess glue with a dry paper towel. Once the liners are on I paint over the tapes with shellac to keep air and such away from the glue, which does cause it to deteriorate over time. We'll know in 75 years or so whether the shellac helps.

When I tested some different tapes and glues several years ago I found that HHG was a bit stronger in this application than Titebond. I also find it a lot easier to use. With the Titebond I had to work it into a damp tape with my fingers, and that makes a real mess; it didn't want to soak in by itself. It took about 60% more force to break test strips of wood with tapes on them than wood with no tapes of the same size. Generally the tape breaks when the wood does. Some folks adduce that as evidence that the tapes don't work, but, of course, you can't know how much force it took to break something after the fact. They don't make the guitar bullet proof, but they do increase the strength somewhat. They also do a pretty good job of stopping cracks that do get started; small repairs are generally better than big ones.

I was very skeptical that a little bias tape could hold a side together, but after playing with the sample side section, I was convinced! The side cracks easily when pushing from what would be the inside of the guitar. Pressure from the other side just bends the side a bit more.

Wish me luck. Posting first picture!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Hesh, sorry didn't mean to offend. Just when looking back over time there was a period where all of your posted were deleted and there are a few (or at least one) that was discussing the bias tape install. I thought that was the tutorial.

Ok, so I didn't figure it was too tough and just gave it a try. Pretty easy really. Here's my pictures.

I laid out the locations for the tape strips. I started at 3" from the tail block edge then the width of the strip then another 3" from that to the waist. Then I measured 3" from the headblock edge for the start of the strip. I taped off all the strip locations. Thinned some titebond and used a simple kids school paint brush to apply the glue to the rim, placed the bias tape and tapped it down with the brush end, then applied more glue to the strip. I used the binder clips to keep the strip held at one end then just used a paper towel to press and wipe the excess glue off then clipped the other end. I'm sure the clips aren't required but I'm sure they didn't hurt anything. The glue dried very quick and in 1/2 hr I pulled the clips off and sanded the sides to p180. Then I installed the liners on. I'll finish the inside of the body sans top with shellac which should seal and make everything look good when done.

Glue on the rim


Place bias tape on glue


More glue on the tape


Add clip (again probably not necessary)


Wipe excess glue and add second clip


And all done, just remove the masking tape.


And the liners glued on.

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You can iron the bias tape and that takes the creases out of it and helps it stick down better. Try not to get the iron too hot for polyester, what the tapes are typically made of, or it can melt them a bit making them less absorbent of liquid glue.

Looks good Rod. Easy too, eh.

Side tapes do work much of the time in arresting a traveling crack. Wonder how many millions of guitars have been built with them including going way back!

I do mine almost exactly the same as Rod but with Lee Valley "fish glue" straight out of the bottle. Soaks into the bias tape super easy and clean up is a breeze.

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I was thinking of using fish glue too but thought the dry time would be much longer than the titebond. What's your experience with this Raymund?


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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Those tapes are typically cotton-poly blend. I would avoid using any that are just polyester, since I'm not sure how well they would stick with the glue. I tried some nylon tapes at the same time I did the measurements of the bias tapes, and they didn't break, but tended to come unglued with less force than it took to break the cotton-poly tapes. Too much heat will certainly melt the polyester, so be careful.

Again, in my tests HHG ended up a bit stronger than Titebond. I didn't have fish glue at that time, and so didn't test it. From what I know of it, it could well be as strong or stronger. OTOH, I think it would need protection from the air even more than HHG does, so I'd be sure to shellac it thoroughly with several coats after the liners are installed.

Like the way you alternate the red and silver clips Rod.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I've done my last three builds using fish glue to adhere my bias tape and it dries in about an hour or so. It is dry enough that I can slice the ends off with a razor and the tape stays put.

When I attach my braced back and sides I spray two light coats of de-waxed shellac inside the entire "boat". (thus sealing the tape as well) Not 100% sure this is an effective sealer, however, it sure looks nice through the sound hole! ;o)

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

Thanks for the Canadian acclaimer

Ya these are cotton/polyester blend. I ironed them for quite some time but they just didn't fully remove the seam. I figure it would be fine.



Thank you Colin, I'm glad you noticed. Just another fun way of doing the simple tasks.

I do plan on sealing the entire boat with a couple coats of shellac once the back is on...

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Sure, no prob, I'm nearly fluent in Canadian..... and my "Merican" is improving too....

My tapes where a blend too and that's all I could find. What's even better is if you can find a Linen or all cotton mesh of sorts.

I just had a hernia fixed..... kind of..... and my surgeon has this mesh stuff that he uses to fix hernias and I'm interested in doing some glue tests. The stuff is super strong but I have no idea if it will glue well. He's offered samples for free.... I like free.

I believe it was Mark Blanchard that lost two guitars when a Fedex cargo plane crashed. The guitars were built with bias tape supports and the sides were sheered off from the end and neck blocks but were not otherwise cracked. Everything else on both guitars was totally destroyed. He posted pictures somewhere but I can't find that post now.

Kent

The trick to permanently flattening bias tape, as well as any poly/cotton blend, is lots of steam and a high polyester/synthetic setting for heat. Lacking steam, the cotton stays kinked and will not lay down; not enough heat and the polyester never relaxes.

A rotary shear works best for straight cuts in light fabrics like bias tape, although a fresh straight-edged razor blade can be pressed into service.

I believe Mr. Carruth examined different fabrics for side tapes, with cotton-poly bias tape being the best combination of strength and ability to stay glued to the surface. I don't recall if he tested silk, rayon or pure cotton, but we have been using a silk ribbon material which we found at a boutique fabric store that is quite strong, stretch resistant, and a good match for the 1930 Martin OM's side tapes we are restoring. We also found a nice cotton twill that is said to be a good appearance match for later Martin side tapes, but it was too thick to use under the kerfings

Home Econ PM Sec 3 still remembers and reveres you, Mrs. F!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

This may have been covered early on and I missed it.
Are you guys gluing the linings over the tape?

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It was, and they do.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I tested cotton-poly bias tapes and nylon twill. Silk should glue well with HHG, and probably with Titebond as well, although I find it a pain to use. Some violin repair people use Tyvek and claim that it glues well. You can get Tyvek envelopes at the post office. It's really strong, but I have not tried it as a side tape yet.

As in Tyvek suite? Does it have enough small gaps to let the glue wick through I wonder? Not that it would matter as long as the piece glues to the side well...

If so it would be pretty inexpensive for sure. http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Tyvek-55gm ... e+material

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson