Official Luthiers Forum!

If someone understands the nut, I'd appreciate a drawing of how the string should contact the slot front to back. I'm certain someone knows. And it's something that matters more for B and high E.

Mike

Mike,

I bought Kent Everett's setup a few years back. It's straight forward and easy to follow. I can't say it's the best produced vid, but the end results speak for them selves. The most common comment I get on my work is "it's so easy to play" this coming from folk who know from.

Happy holiday, Michael

Sounds like a plan. I learned the bevel from his video. I like his work.

I'm a nut, what do you want to know?

OK I get it:

1) for acoustic or traditional headstocks with say a 14 - 15 degree angle the slot should be around half the difference of the angle, 7ish degrees (Frank Ford).
2) Slots should have this angle on the face of the nut especially as the termination of the speaking length of the string on that end.
3) No humps should be present in a nut slot.
4) Nut slots should never bind or pinch hence why V shaped slots suck.
5) Slots should be cut for one string size up (meaning a swap from say 10's to 11's or 12's to 13's, etc.) so players can switch string gauges if they want.
6) Too flat a nut slot, not enough angle is the cause of the sitar sound as the vibrating wave does not terminate at the nut face but breaches into the slot.
7) Nearly everyone regardless of methods does not cut nut slots low enough...... YMMV I've worked on $10K brand new instruments with mile high nut slots.....
8) Fancy, smancy jigs, stops, feeler gaugers, etc are not necessary..... simply use your two eyes and two fingers and you will be good to go. I use my ears too...

Is there something more specific that you want to discuss, Mike? I can get much more detailed but I need you to narrow down a bit more where you want to go with this conversation. BTW: Merry Christmas!

Here is the single most useful/used tool in our shop:



Nut slots should be:

1) Cut with neck relief dialed in
2) Under full string tension, tuned to pitch
3) Strings are lifted out of the slot to make the cuts and then replaced and....
4) Checked for depth by fretting and holding between the 2nd and 3rd frets while observing string height over the first fret crown
5) String should not be in contact with the first fret crown as in "4" above but slightly above
6) There is no magic number or measurement for how low/high the string should be over the first fret crown
7) Distance over the first fret crown gets progressively higher as string gauge increases
8) As I lower a nut slot I retune to pitch each time so that the "ark" of the string over the nut slot is as it will be when tuned to pitch

Nuts need to be made on the respective instrument for great fit and slots need to be cut on the instrument while tuned to pitch. String lifters are important to how we work and what we do and absolutely key to the results that we get. This is why this is one of our very most used tools.

Hesh,

Is that something you made?

Yep, actually Dave makes these string lifters and we were just talking about them a couple of days ago and we both believe that we use this tool more than anything else. We see over 1,100 stringed, plucked instruments annually and the vast majority get their nut slots cut so as you can imagine our string lifters are lifting thousands of strings annually.

On the business end, the part that captures the string, it's especially smoothed and polished so that it will never abrade or break a string when in use and that can't be seen in the pic. It's also pictured on our Ann Arbor Guitar Facebook page.

These lifters start life as brass stock from the hobby or hardware store and then are shaped and folded over and soldered so that the handle is double thickness for rigidity and better grip. You can easily make these yourself too so feel very free. It's super useful and the only down side is not losing it since it is small and often reached for.

+1

Hesh, I've been using the StewMac string lifter and it is ok but I like the looks of that one better. Can we buy one or do I need to dig out a piece of brass stock and make one?

Edit: I see you beat me to the punch:)

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Hesh I really like that tool -- been thinking about buying one of the SM lifters --- but actually I've been using an old button hook for as long as I've been doing set ups.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hey Greg! We don't make or sell these so perhaps make one for yourself, or make two and give one to Steve (and Emma! ). We will be using them in the class so be sure to bring it too.

Ken exactly!!!! That one looks very cool and useful too - great idea!

I agree that making a "perfect" nut can be an art form. But we all have to start somewhere, this is my instruction set for our (KMG) kit builders -- good feed back lots of happy users.

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/zerofret.html

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Nice!

I noticed that it looked nicely eased and smooth. The only upgrade I'd make to it would be to fold in a thin strip of ferrous metal before soldering. That way I could stick it to the mag-strips on my bench and maybe not loose it as easily.

Michael that is a GREAT idea!!!! I keep mine in a slot in my nut file box but it would be better to have it magnetic - great thinking!!! May be time for me to make a new one.

Ken your toots look great and what a great resource too for OLFers. You might want to start a thread in the toots section that is an index/directory with links to your toots and web site so that everyone can find them easily!

There are lots of ways to make a nut for sure and likely everyone has a slightly different approach but ultimately the results are what count.

We are very well known for our set-ups and if you look at our reviews you will see why. We believe that the nut slots are super important to playability and very noticeable too when properly cut. A guitar should be near effortless to play and if you have to struggle with say anything in the first three positions the nut slots are likely too high.

I know I sound like a broken record but I am always keen to share what I learn because that's what some of the very fine folks here did with me some over ten years ago now on the OLF. It's very easy to view guitar making as woodworking and carpentry and although that's most certainly part of it ultimately what we are producing are tools for musicians. And since also ultimately we want our value proposition to exceed the usual f*ctory suspects in all respects.... playability is something that a prospective client will notice for better or worse at once! You cannot hide the fact that a guitar plays like crap OR plays great - it will be noticed at once.

I personally had a lot of trouble learning to cut nut slots well and admittedly it was one of the two most frustrating things for me in Lutherie. Pore filling was the other until I tried ep*xy...

So if you get a sitar sound or cut too far or your spacing between strings or even the edge of the neck basically sucks I can relate but you WILL get though it if you preserver and endeavor to learn methods that will work for you every time. At some point these things that are difficult will be a piece of cake for ya and then you get to find new things to have a heart attack over....

Something else that I wanted to mention. Tools are super important and even though in the past there have been gentleman's disagreements over the need for say dedicated nut slotting files my belief will always be that if you are doing this stuff for others and money there is no excuse for not having what ever works for you and delivers professional level standards. If you are a hobbyist and not commercial in any way use what ever you want this is not what I am commenting on.

Back to proper tools. The files that I use are key to my results in not only the quality of the cut but how they allow me to hold the tools. My breakthrough with cutting nut slots that were no longer too shallow in break angle resulting in that Ravi Cankersore sitar sound (No offense intended to Nora....) was learning to hold my little finger under the file. My little finger is in contact and registering off the fret plane as I use the file so the angle is approximately 1/2 the set back angle OR angled enough for say headstocks that are not set-back (Fender style) to still be enough of an angle for a good break angle.

My little finger ensures that the file is tipped enough in respect to the fret plane and none of this would be possible if I was not using consistently tools/files of the same general shape and length so that I could get used to them eventually including holding the files consistently every time.

We are asking our students to buy the Stew-Mac gauged nut files because this is what we use and we want to share the techniques that are specific to these tools with our students. What you use is important and a variable of sorts that if you are new to nut slot cutting this variable can be easily eliminated, just throw some money at it and be done with it.

PS: We have and do wear these files out but it likely takes thousands of cuts for that to happen.

I won't offer this as a practical matter because it's fairly impossible to make a nut conventionally that implements this idea...but as a theory that could be explored using a cnc machine...the solution works very well.

With machine shop quality cnc's it's relatively simple to create a nut with a PRECISE break point angle. The string groove can also be planned and then shaped precisely.

My theory was...that the break point need ONLY establish the fulcrum, the EXACT point, in theory, at which the string is allowed to vibrate freely. If that edge is too sharp...then the cumulative effect of subsequent tunings and string stretches will be wear on that point...and that will muddle the precise theoretical point of the fulcrum and also possibly create unwanted buzzing. Keeping the break point to a minimum will reduce this wear. Theoretically, a zero break point angle would never wear and the theoretical fulcrum would always remain intact. Another benefit of this is that tension along the entire string length will be equalized when the fulcrums do not include high break angles.

Initially in my building I wasn't sure what break angle would be required so I did a series of tests exploring the break point of the nut....to find the minimum break angle necessary to establish a clear fulcrum point. I ended up with a two degree break...but it only works because of the ability to control what happens behind the break point. Perfectly concentric, half-round grooves are created for each string that are exactly .001" larger in diameter than each string. The path of each groove proceeds behind the fulcrum in a gentle curve the directs the string toward the tangent point of each tuner post. These grooves are .005" deeper than the center point of each string...which means they produce a side wall for each string...to constrain the side loads that result from bending strings while playing.

So....the nut has a minimal break point and a smooth, snug, half round groove for each string that constrains it...and then gently guides that string to it next point of contact on the guitar...the tuning post.

Since I settled on this design I haven't had any reason to alter it. I only make electrics....and I only make them with cnc machines so I recognize the limitations of this idea in the practical world of conventional building ....but I thought I'd offer this to you guys as something to consider and keep in mind. The guitars play very nicely...and REALLY hold a tuning...even after VISCOUS stretches. The nut and bridge design is focused on creating and maintaining precise fulcrum points while allowing string tension to equalize throughout the system.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Well put Stuart, it's the way I've always aimed at even though I'm using the Stewmac nut files and doing it by hand rather than CNC. I like the almost zero break point and so long as the transition is correct and there's a little relief at the exit point, it works perfectly both for playability and tuning stability.

One of the more important issues I feel is; knowing your tools well enough and having the confidence of their use and that comes down to experience and practice or getting someone to show you how.
Nut files are like any other files that we may use in that the harder you press on the forward stroke(within reason), the more material they take off, so it's a matter of knowing how hard to press and how many strokes you need to get you a lot closer to where you are going and NOT beyond.

(Hesh and Ken) The string lifters look great too, I often fancied one, but I still just use my forefingers and thumbs to manually lift them out of the nut slots and onto the surface of the nut, (it can be tough on the finger tips with steep neck angles and deeply cut nut slots). I do it manually because I feel I can make it more gentle on the string as I lift it in a slight curve from both sides of the nut, rather than maybe stressing the string by bending it over a single or dual point. Am I being too pedantic?

_________________
http://www.bobmatthewsguitars.co.uk

No Bob you're good. I use my fingers at times too when I am too lazy to find the lifter. I'll second the know your tools thing too!

Where you really appreciate a lifter is with say a Rick 12 string...... lifters are your friend with these beasts!

Something to keep in mind and remember I'm a builder too who is just as attached to my creations after they leave home as anyone. We are not always going to be the one to service our stuff. Some hack in a national chain store may not understand anything departing from the norm and as such may do more harm than good when encountering even the best of ideas.

The old serviceability thing. Also shredders are very different beasts from a proper blue grass ax played by a ham fisted guy who gets into the music and uses a 1/16" thick pick..... Vibrating waves can beach shallow nut slots. What works for shredders may not work for all guitars.

G*bsons these days have very radical peaks in their nuts making the slot very short and as such subject to excessive wear quickly AND they are easier to cut too low for the very same reason.

Carlos's primary gigging ax's have brass inserts built into his nuts and yes that might hurt.... PRS does this for him and it's part of his sound. The brass is there likely to reduce wear and contribute to his tone.

My nuts are more complicated than that. Just kidding. I've always wanted to say that....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Hey Ken,

I agree with Hesh about sharing your tutorial on the OLF. I would find it useful and convenient to access from the Forum.

Thanks,
Max

_________________
Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

I have found that the difference between a perfect nut height and a first fret buzz is not very much... Probably less than .0001" or so. Had to redo a few nuts because of that. I'm wondering if those UV glue thing that I keep seeing on TV (Lazerbond?) will be great for luthiers.

I was always under the impression that nearly all factory guitars have a mile high nut because they expect the player (or guitar tech if the player can't do it) to tune it to their preference. Not all players want low nut believe it or not!

If I ever make a brass nut, I'll use my manual mill to rough the shape out (make it fit the slot and all) but use the nut file to make the slot. No way I can mill a precise angle without CNC.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Thanks, Hesh for the info.
You pretty much said it all!
I have a question though,
are we supposed to angle the slots towards the tuner posts?
My peghead design isn't the prettiest,
but the strings don't angle at the nut much.
I also only build lap steels,
so the height is a piece of cake,
just high.
Also, I was told the depth of the notch should be 1/2 the diameter of the string.
Is that right?
Makes sense to me.
I have made nuts for regular guitars as well,
and never had any problems.

Hey Alan and Happy Holidays to ya!

Angling is a matter of personal preference. Some do, some don't and there is nothing wrong with either. It can look eloquent to some and on some designs.

In terms of utility the string will have to change directions to make it to the tuner post in most cases. Regardless of if we make this directional change all at once, pointing the slot to the post, or not the same amount of directional change will exist eventually in either design.

If the nut slots are properly cut meaning they don't bind or pinch IME it makes no difference what method one uses. My personal preference is straight cuts mostly because I place more value on exact string spacing which can be more difficult, not impossible mind you, with angled slots.

Either method is fine though and I can see with some designs angled slots might look better too.

Regarding the half the diameter of the string proud thing it's not a hard rule nor does it have any utilitarian or serviceability value down the road.

Dave and I are very interested in who did what first in our trade and do a lot of research in this regard to find out. We think that our friend Dan E. started the half string proud thing and it caught on and on and on though the years. By the way our shop in it's previous location is where Dan had long hair, knew Iggy Stooge personally, and got his start in Lutherie working for the same now 84 year old Luthier who we did contract work for. We even have Dan's Dad's belt sander and use it every day...

But I digress.... Anyway the half string proud thing does look eloquent AND it very much is in keeping with the thinking that all unnecessary nut material should be removed so that our nuts don't look chunky. Nut etiquette if you will.... No jokes please, well maybe some good ones....

Is it necessary? No and if you were to survey 100 guitars that you encounter you will find very, very few who subscribe to the half string proud thing these days. What's far more important is cutting the slots to a depth that is optimal for player comfort and ease of playing and that means ignoring the nut top surface height.

Dave has brought up before that he knows of heavy handed players who can rip a half proud high e string out of the slot while playing blue grass music so he was never keen to do the half height thing either.

But like many things Lutherie there are no hard rules simply do what works best for you and provides the most value over time for clients if you work commercially.

Exactly! I don't know the exact measurement but it's very, very slight and likely less that .001". We want to get down there but not quite that low so that some wear of the nut slot from playing won't cause the string to start buzzing open.

Good observation Tai Fu!

Hesh, if I am remembering correctly, I first saw that half string proud instruction described in one of Don Teeter's repair books from the 1970s. I could look it up if you are interested.

Correct

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I think the whole slot depth being half the string diameter thing is more for looks. I try to pull them off but found it really difficult to keep it that way. The reason is I want to do my final fitting of the nut slot when the nut is fixed to the guitar (ie. won't move on me) which means it's glued down with CA. To get the half depth thing I would need to final fit the nut while it could possibly move on me (throwing off my concentration) and then remove the nut and very carefully grind away excess material praying that I don't go overboard (very easy with the treble strings) then proceed to polish it. Speaking of polishing, the process usually leaves crud in the slot and the final fitting step after everything's fixed in place removes the crud. I would dare not try that with the nut already final fitted because I'll cut away that .02 micron difference between a perfect nut height and a buzzing string!

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com