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| Fret position mistake....problem??? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46945 |
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| Author: | JeffD [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Fret position mistake....problem??? |
OK I cut the fret slots for my first build earlier today and everything was going well until the 12th fret.....of course it had to be the 12th! Anyway I must not have had enough side pressure on the saw blade and when I cut the slot it wandered a bit short. Looks to be about 1/64" short, (closer to the nut), of where I wanted it. I'm thinking it will still be plenty fine since I'll be the one playing it and my ear is not all that good anyway. But figured it was worth asking if this will cause any significant problems with intonation or.....??? I don't want to re-make it, but if it's going to be problematic I will. thanks, Jeff |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
Well, if everything else is perfect, notes on that fret will be ~2 cents flat. If that bothers you, you can tilt the crown most of 1/64" when you level/re-crown the frets, to reduce it to less than 1 cent error. Most standard guitars aren't anywhere near that accurate on most of their frets. You could pull the fret, fill the slot with a sliver of fretboard wood and re-cut the slot, but with the differences in wood hardness/glue etc. either side of the saw blade as you try to re-cut, I doubt you'd be able to get it much more accurate than it is now. |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
What Trevor said and when you go to place your bridge you want to measure from the nut to where the 12th fret would be and from where the 12the fret would be to the saddle plus compensation.  I think.Putting in a sliver of ebony would probably be the least stressful. |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
You could just grind off the fret tangs on one side of that fret then glue it in with CA |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
Pack the slot with wood dust (an x-acto knife ground to a chisel point is a handy tool for this, as well as for cleaning dust out of fret slots), soak it with thin CA, and recut the slot. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
My $.02 -- this is a musical tool/instrument, do not construct it with the octave fret in the wrong position. Fill and re-cut or a complete new board, have you measured all the other slots series fashion from the nut to check your work? |
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| Author: | phil [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
I'm with Ken. It's a musical instrument. Even if it's ugly it can make beautiful music. But if the frets are in the wrong place, it can't make beautiful music. So that's now $0.04 in that direction. |
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| Author: | Pat Hawley [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
1/64 of an inch? Forget it. You'll never hear it. At that margin of error you are into the weeds with respect to compensation, your particular preference for action height, how accurately you press the string straight down, what kind of string you use etc. Heck, I like to leave at least that much flat on every fret when I'm re-crowning them after leveling. Press on and don't stress out. Besides which Trevor was right - you are very unlikely to get that accurate re-sawing over a fix anyway. Pat |
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| Author: | JeffD [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
Ok I slept on it last night and looked at it anew this morning. I know I'd never hear the difference, and likely it would work out just fine. But something just bugged me about it. Then I got to thinking of how to properly fix it. Not a big fan of the sawdust and glue thing....just personal preference. In my mind the proper way to fix a problem like this is to fill with wood and re-cut. Of course the idea of cutting a crossgrain piece at roughly .021" thick with a slight taper to allow for glue and a tight seam seemed like it would be pretty difficult.....so that's what I did! I figure if I'm really going to build this thing I need to be able to fix a few oops along the way. Anyway the repair looks pretty good, it's actually very hard to find since with the new slot there's not much of it to see. Once the fret goes in the repair area should be completely covered and I'll rest assured that the 12th fret is in the right place. The guitar still may end up sounding like garbage.....but that fret will be right anyway! thanks and Happy New Year! Jeff |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
So now if you compensate the nut.... |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
Quote: But something just bugged me about it. Then I got to thinking of how to properly fix it. Good for you Jeff! -- says a lot about artistry and craftsmanship |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
I fixed mistakes like this by gluing ebony veneers into the slot, and recutting them elsewhere. Hopefully the fret will hide the flaw (use a wide fretwire) |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
Okay. My turn to pipe in here. I play lap steel guitar, and build them. I noticed when I play in tune to my ear, which is very good, I'm way not over the fret. especially 2nd, 4th and 11th(?). I noticed it was the same on all of my builds. I use a fret layout ruler, so... Anyway, I went to a class where Steve Kimock taught, and low and behold, he told us certain fretted notes are out of tune. He used a lap steel to show us. So, I think one should get everything as close as possible, but, a fretted guitar will be out of tune at some locations. If I was you, I would cut a new fretboard, or fill and cut in a new 12th fret, just because that is a very important fret. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
alan stassforth wrote: Okay. My turn to pipe in here. I play lap steel guitar, and build them. I noticed when I play in tune to my ear, which is very good, I'm way not over the fret. especially 2nd, 4th and 11th(?). I noticed it was the same on all of my builds. I use a fret layout ruler, so... Anyway, I went to a class where Steve Kimock taught, and low and behold, he told us certain fretted notes are out of tune. He used a lap steel to show us. So, I think one should get everything as close as possible, but, a fretted guitar will be out of tune at some locations. If I was you, I would cut a new fretboard, or fill and cut in a new 12th fret, just because that is a very important fret. Nut compensation will get those wrong spots a lot closer to right. |
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| Author: | IanC [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
"certain fretted notes are out of tune" doesn't begin to touch the scale of the problem. Given the problems of intonation and temperament (bending notes so that the same 12 notes work in all 12 keys and you don't have to think about the difference between A# and Bb) it's a miracle that fretted instruments work at all. The most comprehensive explanation I've ever seen is here: http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation ... tion1.html but it's not for the faint hearted. To sum up, I completely understand why you fixed that fret - I'd almost certainly have done the same myself, the same way - but in terms of playing music I'd be very surprised if you could hear the difference. |
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| Author: | JeffD [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fret position mistake....problem??? |
Thanks Ian, I can guarantee I'd never know the difference. I've been playing off and on for.....well lets just say a very long time:) I still rely on using a tuner to get my guitar in tune and find it awesome that guys can do it by ear.....just not me! That's the level I'm at and while I'll hopefully improve my skills over time, I'm not sure I'll get to the point where I can hear minute differences. So anyway the new fret slot is good, but I'm sure there will be a hundred other places I can go wrong before all is done;>) I am curious now though at the level of accuracy guys strive for in this instance.....may be worthy of a new thread though? Jeff |
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