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Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46738		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ken Grunst [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Hey Guys,
My wife asked me what I needed in my guitar shop for a Christmas present.
I've been thinking about a hide glue pot, but before I give this hint to "Santa"
I thought I'd better ask if you really believe hide glue improves the tone of your guitars
over, say, LMI yellow glue or Titebond?
It sounds like hide glue is a pain to use,
but if it really improves your guitars tone I'd like to hear from you.
Ken
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
It's another tool in the box. Good to learn how to use it. IMO which glue you use doesn't have a significant effect on tone.
Author:  tysam [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Hide glue has it's uses over Titebond ect in that it will reattach to itself saving the hassle of removing all the old Titebond in the event of a repair or reattachment. As far as tone enhancement goes, unless you have way better ears than I do, I have noticed no dramatic improvement or loss of tone with either.As Steve said, it's another tool in the box so is worth experimenting with.
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
There are many reasons for hide glue to be preferred over others - heat resistance, cold creep resistance, serviceability - these all bring well known, objective improvements for some applications, most notable probably being the bridge joint.

Tonal concerns lie more in the realm of speculative (and I might say dubious) effect, and is not a motive which would personally inspire me to choose hide glue over others. I do use it though, for several reasons I place above tonal concerns, and it's not really as difficult as you may have been led to believe.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
I use it for bridges on all our guitars, and the bracing as well for the deluxe ones. This is for serviceability, not tone. I've noticed no tonal benefits.

It is not hard to use. I use a crockpot mini, and I would not spend more on a unit sold as a glue pot, no need.
Author:  patch [ Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
meddlingfool wrote:
I use it for bridges on all our guitars, and the bracing as well for the deluxe ones. This is for serviceability, not tone. I've noticed no tonal benefits.

It is not hard to use. I use a crockpot mini, and I would not spend more on a unit sold as a glue pot, no need.


Which model and brand do you use? I did a quick search for crockpot mini and the price difference between those and what StewMac sells is huge. Awesome advice Meddlingfool, this could get me to start experimenting with hhg.
Author:  mhammond [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
There is no one secret that will make your guitars 20% better than everybody else.

However, if you can make your instruments 1% better in 20 places ...

Well?
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
There's definitely secrets to making your guitars 20% better, and they can be found in the Gore/Gilet books. Which actually makes them not secrets. Doh. Hide glue is not 1%.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Image

This keeps the glue at a pretty steady 140 degrees. HHG is easy. You have to move precisely without pause, but you don't need to panic. You have about 1 minute to glue, place, and clamp. I've never found a need to preheat parts like some folk do. Just rehearse a few times at first, do dry runs to get a feel for it, then do it.

I use a teaspoon of granule to 3 teaspoons of distiller water. I make very small batches, about a tablespoon or two. Keep it in the fridge, heat when needed, put back in fridge. I get about 4-5 bridge glues per batch. If I feel hinky about how long it's been mixed, how many times it's been heated, I chuck it.

It's better to have it thinner than thick. You're not looking for Titebond viscosity. More like a wine with thick legs. Well, maybe a little thicker, but it should flow easily. The heat is in the water, so thinner actually gives you more time to work.

Oh, your joints need to be perfect. No gap filling properties.
Author:  patch [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Thanks for the info Meddlingfool!!
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
No probs!

Ha ha! I like how this photo has helped me find the books. I though they were buried in construction rubble, but apparently I had the foresight to tuck them aside... :roll:
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
meddlingfool wrote:
No probs!

Ha ha! I like how this photo has helped me find the books. I though they were buried in construction rubble, but apparently I had the foresight to tuck them aside... :roll:

[:Y:] Result - foresight and planning!
Author:  John Arnold [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
I like to use hide glue for all bridges and dovetail resets. I also like to use it for bracing and fingerboards on new builds. I believe there is an improvement in the sound when using HHG for bridges, but the main improvement i have noticed is in the first month after gluing.

I had a 1 quart Hold Heet glue pot for about 20 years. The pot finally corroded a hole through where it contacted the brass rivets. If you do get one, I suggest putting a couple of pop rivets in the rim of the pot to lift it up and not contact the rivets in the bottom of the well.
Now i am using this wax pot, which I like much better. I like the adjustable thermostat and the switch. The Hold Heet has neither. It is also about 1/4 the price.

http://www.amazon.com/Salon-Sundry-Professional-Single-Chamber/dp/B007ROD298/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1448712990&sr=8-18-spons&keywords=waxing+heater&psc=1
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
One way to reduce the "pain" of using hide glue is to use small (1-2 oz.) long nosed squeeze bottles that can be found at JoAnn Fabrics. When you catch a sale they are about $3 for a six pack.
Author:  ernie [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Been using hhg in a small baby bottle warmer from yard sales for 25 yrs .I always keep a candy thermometer (yard sale) to keep it at 140-150 deg f. I like glass spice jars or small jam jars and have an assortment of synthetic/ natural sized bristle brushes to apply the glue .I use 315 g HHG for bridges , and use a silicone heating blanket ( thin ) prior to glueing . HHG is your friend . I notice no difference and play abt. 5 different musical instruments .Your mileage may vary.HHG is a learning curve depending on your application. Experiment on scrap till you get the results you seek . PS 192 g hhg is avg for instrument making , fish also works well. Good luck
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Thanks for the HoldHeet tip John. Mine is going strong at ten years.

I love hide for the reasons mentioned. I talked myself into thinking it put a little edge on the tone. Plate joIning, braces, bridge plate, bridge, and frets for me. I was pretty convinced that filling the fret slots with it was a positive.

Tightbond Extend for most everything else.

Try it, it's fun and a good thing to know how to use.
Author:  kencierp [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
John Greven's take on the OP can be found here:

http://www.grevenguitars.com/pdfs/MartinMyths.pdf

John has mentioned to me that if a customer wants HHG he'll use it and there is no up-charge.
Author:  SteveG [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
John Arnold's recommendation on the wax pot has 90 bucks off of the list price!

For folks that have a HoldHeet pot, the temperature IS adjustable.

To set the temperature of the Hold Heet glue pot, remove the two small screws that attach the liner to the bucket. Spring out the handle if you need to and lift up the liner. There is a nickel-plated heat-adjusting thermostat nut with a little sealant on one side to prevent it from turning. Turn the nut clockwise to increase the temperature, counterclockwise to decrease it. Don't replace the screws until you can be sure that the pot is reliable at about 145 degrees. This is the temperature that your glue will last longest at, and still work well.

cheers, Steve
Author:  George L [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Quote:
Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?

Not that I can hear.

Now, were you to replace the word "tone" with "repairability," my answer would be, Yes.
Author:  Ken McKay [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
A lot of customers and potential customers want it and perceive it as better for "tone". I like using it for a lot of things.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Let's see, hide glue and tone you say....

Often in my experience when trying to determine why Luthiers who came before us did what they did or used what they used the answer can be found simply by considering the possibility that they did what they did or used what they used because of what they had available to them at that time. Simple, right..... well kind of.

Even though every lousy, cheap instrument with action high enough to slice hard boiled eggs back when I was a kid (60's and early 70's :roll: ) used HHG does not mean that they used HHG for reasons associated with tone. However we can't really say that they didn't either.

HHG goes WAY back to the days of the Egyptians and there are examples of 1,000 or older chairs crafted by Egyptians with HHG that survive today. That's impressive and perhaps a reason to as the song says walk like an Egyptian. Perhaps not...

I use HHG for things such as all bracing, joining plates, bridge plates, bridge glues, etc. If open time is an issue I use something else if I can't extend the open time of HHG with preheating or unnatural acts.

The primary reason that I use it is that I personally like the stuff and really like the concept that something from the past, the waaaaaaay past may be superior to all of today's chemistry and advances in materials and science. There is a certain charm to having some HHG cooking on my bench and then slathering it on and going at it. Makes me think of the folks who came before us.

So there is the charm factor.

There is also as mentioned a level of serviceability that is second to none in comparison to the other glue choices. As mentioned a HHG joint is infinitely, well maybe not infinitely but very serviceable and new glue can even reactivate old glue if done correctly.

That gives us a serviceability factor at the top of the charts for HHG.

Tonally do I believe that there may...... be...... a sonic dividend? :roll: Yep but who the hell can prove it so I'm less inclined to focus on any perceived benefits to tone from HHG use. I'm reminded as well that often we humans observe things and assign the wrong causation in our ignorance. Remember when the world was flat.... :roll:

HHG requires or at least greatly benefits from very well fit joints. It's not a gap filler contrary to the assertions by some on this very forum in the past. Instead if applied and clamped correctly it produces a very thin, very hard glue layer that has very low dampening as well again likely because of the hardness and thinness. It could be that better fit joints needed for proper HHG use contribute to the perception or reality of a tonal dividend. It also could be hog wash....

Anyway I like using it, it's a tradition as well, it's a superior glue for many things that may require serviceability in the future, and since many of the iconic instruments of the past used HHG one can only hope that HHG will also make a contribution in this regard as well.

As with most things Lutherie and in my experience it's always best to go and see for yourself. The HHG learning curve is not difficult and you can trick the stuff into being suitable for applications that you may not have believed it suitable for prior. A very good example of this is Mario P's video of attaching the top and back plates with HHG. Mario used for this traditionally long open time operation a combination of preheating, knowing what he is doing and working a good pace, and messing with the viscosity of the HHG to actually get the jelling working for him. Brilliant! If you can't beat em, join em in respect to the jelling!

These days the marketing hype associated with HHG use if over the top but so too is the perception of the tonal benefits in the marketplace as well. Countless folks want to chase tone for what ever reason and as such there will always be things with real benefit to sell them or that preverbal bridge as well. Which one is HHG in respect to tone.

My suggestion is to go find out.:)
Author:  doncaparker [ Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
I want my guitars to outlive me and my grandchildren, and remain serviceable for generations. When I wipe off squeeze-out, I don't want what remains in the wood to mess with my finish or future glue joints. I want no cold creep. I want the best possible heat resistance. I want to be able to mix the glue fresh the way I like it for specific tasks (thinner for this, thicker for that, higher or lower gram strength, urea or no urea, etc.). I want to be able to tell folks that the only adhesive I use on my guitars is freshly mixed hot hide glue, and have it be 100% true.

So, I use hot hide glue for everything that actually goes on the guitar (jigs and fixtures get Titebond). If hot hide glue also helps the tone, that's great. The jury is out on whether that is true or imaginary. But everything else is a lot clearer to me.
Author:  Woodie G [ Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
I would suggest taking a trip to a shop where hot hide glue is being used and seeing how it is done. That helped me understand the technique for working with the glue. It was suggested to me by the local boys that glue line thickness is more of an issue than the type of glue.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
Ken Grunst wrote:
Hey Guys,
My wife asked me what I needed in my guitar shop for a Christmas present.
I've been thinking about a hide glue pot, but before I give this hint to "Santa"
I thought I'd better ask if you really believe hide glue improves the tone of your guitars
over, say, LMI yellow glue or Titebond?
It sounds like hide glue is a pain to use,
but if it really improves your guitars tone I'd like to hear from you.
Ken


You know you don't need a traditional HHG pot to use HHG and I still don't own one. Instead the Rival "Hot Pots" work great or any device that heats water and you can control the temp down to 145ish.

For building I used various 1 and 2 ounce squeeze bottles with a stainless steel bolt (a Mario idea) in the bottom like the rattle in rattle can. The bottle floats in the heated water.

At our repair shop we float our HHG in a baby food jar and again no proper HHG, hold-heat pot needed.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hide Glue - Enough improvement in tone to bother?
I decided, when I built my first guitar, that I would learn to use HHG. I will never look back. I really have found it easier to use than most any other type of glue. There's no slippery, sliding of joints with Hide glue. Put them together and hold for a few seconds and the joint has grabbed. Clamp and there is much less tendency for the joint to slip. Keep your shop in the 70's and you get nearly a minute and a half of open time. That's really almost as much as most other glues.
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