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Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46329		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  James Rainhard [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
How safe is a guitar wall hanger? Can it start to stretch the neck and affect intonation irreparably? The forums I've seen are mostly by non-luthiers. String tension vs truss rod tension compared to the weight of the whole body added to that balance of tension? Truss rod tension affects the neck in terms of an arcing tension over two spaces where the neck is being pulled between two points on the guitar body and neck by an arcingly resistant truss rod. But that tension is balanced for a particular height and tuning, not for tuning up three whole tones, or action of 6mm which could in theory warp the neck. So hanging the guitar by the headstock adds extra tension to the neck area, like increasing the tuning tension, right? And, when hanging the guitar by the headstock, isn't the tension focused on the nut in context of whole body weight, acting in a straight line, not an arc, like a bow and arrow's string. Please help?
Author:  johnparchem [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
I sure see a lot of guitars hanging from their head stocks for a lot of years and never have heard of one real world issue come from it. With a steel string there is about 100 lb of string tension pulling in the opposite direction of a hanging guitar. The added tension from the weight of the guitar would be in the strings, so for the rest of the guitar the weight of the body would move the guitar components toward the unstrung state. Strings want to fold a guitar the weight of the body of the guitar would be opposing that folding.

In any case, hopefully a guitar is build with its components well within the elastic range of the materials used in construction. Thus any minor changes in tension will not permanently warp the guitar and change intonation. Once the guitar is taken off the wall hanger it will spring back to whatever are the tensions in its playing condition.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Think about it: 100# or so of string tension pulling the guitar 'in', vs 5# of actual guitar weight pulling it 'out'. Which is likely to win? At best hanging the guitar up is only likely to slow down whatever changes the string tension is making on the neck, and that not by much. Seems like a non-issue to me.
Author:  kencierp [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Quote:
The added tension from the weight of the guitar would be in the strings

Quote:
Seems like a non-issue to me.


Exactly
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
This question will likely get a few responses from the engineer types among us. I will certainly learn a nugget or two about forces and how they are applied. I look forward to reading it. That said, I wouldn't give the issue of wall hangers doing irreparable damage to intonation a second thought. I just can't see that if there were an effect from hanging a guitar like this that it would 1) be measurable with instruments reasonably expected to be used on guitars, 2) be permanent (at least not meaningfully permanent) or 3) that an effect would be of any significance. After all, even a very well set up fretted instrument does not intonate perfectly a shift in geometry that could only be measured in a NASA lab will not be heard by a user (though people will claim that they can).

In my mind this is like many, many other things in the world. A theoretical construct that is propagated by speculation disguised as science.

P.S. I recognize that my tone here could be interpreted as dismissive or condensing, that is far from my intent.

Edit: I see there were several posts while I was typing. I'm going to submit before I read them. Perhaps I will be eating some crow soon :)
Author:  kencierp [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Now having an acoustic guitar hanging on a wall without the benefit of a humidity controlled room ----- that can really affect intonation.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
If this was a real concern, then the five electric guitars that I've had hanging by their necks on the wall for the past ten plus years should be having issues which they are not even with their higher weights and lower string tensions than on an acoustic.
Author:  Michaeldc [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
All of my guitars hang on the wall. They seem to stay in tune just fine. The RH in my music room stays right around 50% RH and 70 degrees year round. Incidentally, I use the units form "Off the wall".

M
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Yes
Author:  Greg B [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Wall hangers are much safer than knocking the guitar over. beehive

Seriously, the forces are trivial, and even if they weren't, it wouldn't affect intonation.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Think of all the guitar stores hanging their stock on the wall. If they noticed a problem, don't you think they would have done something about it by now?
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Wow, I thought I'd heard it all. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go change the air in my tires.
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Thanks James, I needed a laugh!
Author:  johnparchem [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
James Ringelspaugh wrote:
Wow, I thought I'd heard it all. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go change the air in my tires.


Not to joke, but the air compresses over time so that after a couple of years the tires are heavier hurting MPG. Think about how often you need to fill those tires. Where does the air go?
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
James welcome to the OLF.

This is a non-issue and very much an example of some of the myths that are not true that can be furthered on some forums.... The guys are right, it's not a concern at all and actually one of the best ways to store a guitar when not in a case is hanging by the headstock.

My personal guitars that are all around me in my home office at present are all hung up otherwise I'm too lazy to open cases and play them...:)

Some of the forums my business partner and I can't even post on without the resident know-it-all attacking us when we dispute claims such as this one. As such you just can't believe everything that we read on Internet forums.

You will find some folks here who actually study this stuff and spend a great deal of time furthering the craft with research. Dave Collins, Alan Carruth, Trevor Gore, and a host of others are well known for being myth busters so-to-speak and we are lucky to have their participation as well.

Again welcome aboard!
Author:  MikeyV [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
I think a set of Martin Mediums has over 200 pounds of pull.

It's amazing these guitars don't explode.
Author:  John Arnold [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Quote:
Can it start to stretch the neck and affect intonation irreparably?

No. Wood does not stretch very well. If you try, it will crack apart. It will compress, but considering how little a neck actually compresses with almost 200 pounds pushing on it, you have nothing to worry about. Besides, the soundhole in the top is the weak point....not the neck itself.

Quote:
Not to joke, but the air compresses over time so that after a couple of years the tires are heavier hurting MPG. Think about how often you need to fill those tires. Where does the air go?

It leaks out.
The only way to compress the air is to raise the pressure.
Author:  johnparchem [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
John Arnold wrote:
Quote:
Can it start to stretch the neck and affect intonation irreparably?

No. Wood does not stretch very well. If you try, it will crack apart. It will compress, but considering how little a neck actually compresses with almost 200 pounds pushing on it, you have nothing to worry about. Besides, the soundhole in the top is the weak point....not the neck itself.

Quote:
Not to joke, but the air compresses over time so that after a couple of years the tires are heavier hurting MPG. Think about how often you need to fill those tires. Where does the air go?

It leaks out.
The only way to compress the air is to raise the pressure.


:P Sorry I thought the change the air comment was funny and could not help myself from trolling.
Author:  hermit [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
johnparchem wrote:
John Arnold wrote:
Quote:
Can it start to stretch the neck and affect intonation irreparably?

No. Wood does not stretch very well. If you try, it will crack apart. It will compress, but considering how little a neck actually compresses with almost 200 pounds pushing on it, you have nothing to worry about. Besides, the soundhole in the top is the weak point....not the neck itself.

Quote:
Not to joke, but the air compresses over time so that after a couple of years the tires are heavier hurting MPG. Think about how often you need to fill those tires. Where does the air go?

It leaks out.
The only way to compress the air is to raise the pressure.


:P Sorry I thought the change the air comment was funny and could not help myself from trolling.
Misinformation on the internet is so common it is hard to tell sometimes so I just let that 'ride'. I guess "in theory" the lighter compounds could diffuse through the side walls at a higher rate so that progressive filling could make the tires marginally heavier, but hey, we are getting the lead out of the air every time we fill out tires. ;)
Author:  Droidiphile [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
Michaeldc wrote:
All of my guitars hang on the wall. They seem to stay in tune just fine. The RH in my music room stays right around 50% RH and 70 degrees year round. Incidentally, I use the units form "Off the wall".

M

This is the way I see it. A guitar hung by it's neck is still in tune, meaning that any altering forces are insignificant.

To really analyze it, you could model it using "free body diagrams" that isolate and simplfy analysis of the vector forces, then determine deformations of the materials. Believe it or not, modeling a bicycle wheel is similar as it has tensioned spokes holding the circular rim in true versus rider wieght and gravity causing deformation.

But pragmatically, if there isn't even suffcient force to alter tuning, there is nothing to worry about.
Author:  James Rainhard [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
I hate to say it but... I was just testing you guys! ALRIGHT!!!! You guys really DO know your STUUUUUUFFFF! Looks like I'm gonna fit right in with my Firetruck, even though some of the blogs might seem more text oriented... and the air pressure leaking out of the compressed air in the text boxes after parking might create enough drag on just about any situation.

"Once a scientist, always a scientist!" - Internet dude quote.
Author:  dnf777 [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
a shift in geometry that could only be measured in a NASA lab will not be heard by a user (though people will claim that they can).


Edit: I see there were several posts while I was typing. I'm going to submit before I read them. Perhaps I will be eating some crow soon :)[/quote]



Haha! I agree with your take on this issue, and by the way, it didn't take me long to acquire a taste for crow. Its not too bad after you've had as much as I have! :lol:

dave f
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
James Rainhard wrote:
I hate to say it but... I was just testing you guys! ALRIGHT!!!! You guys really DO know your STUUUUUUFFFF! Looks like I'm gonna fit right in with my Firetruck, even though some of the blogs might seem more text oriented... and the air pressure leaking out of the compressed air in the text boxes after parking might create enough drag on just about any situation.

"Once a scientist, always a scientist!" - Internet dude quote.



And to think, I spent all that time trying to type a response to a brand new member that gently explained my view without using the phrase "Are you effin' kidding me?" :)
Author:  johnparchem [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
James Rainhard wrote:
I hate to say it but... I was just testing you guys! ALRIGHT!!!! You guys really DO know your STUUUUUUFFFF! Looks like I'm gonna fit right in with my Firetruck, even though some of the blogs might seem more text oriented... and the air pressure leaking out of the compressed air in the text boxes after parking might create enough drag on just about any situation.

"Once a scientist, always a scientist!" - Internet dude quote.


First post is a troll of the group? that bodes well for future participation. Welcome
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are guitar wall hangers safe in terms of intonation?
"Looks like I'm gonna fit right in with my Firetruck"

You sure that's not a troll- ey?
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