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Public service announcement.
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46210		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  B. Howard [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Public service announcement.
Being a member here for several years now I see quite a few new people joining the forum, and that's great. But as I look down through I see lot's of folks using internet handles. I just wanted to remind everyone that in this community we use our real names.

It is not only polite but helps keep people honest. After all we are here to openly and honestly share any and all information related to lutherie.

It's been awhile since I have seen this brought up and thought I would be the "bad" guy this time.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Nothing bad about that, Brian. It needs to be said, every once in a while.

Alex
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Thanks Brian!

And folks, if you want me to change your "handle" to your name, just let me know.

Email me at lance@kragenbrinkguitars.com
Use the email address you registered with (For verification) your handle and how you would like your name to show.
Id be happy to change it for you!
Author:  Tom West [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Thanks for that Brian...........nothing bad at all about that............My biggest dislike on forums is so called handles. I don't get the need.
Tom
Author:  WendyW [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
I'll change mine from my handle to Wendy, which is how I usually sign my posts anyway.
Author:  George L [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
And every time this is brought up someone has to be the real "bad guy" and point out that there are many perfectly valid personal and professional reasons why one might not want to reveal their full identity on an online forum that is accessible to the general public. If you're talking about given names, like George for example, then yes, it is nice when we can address one another in a familiar manner, just as we would if meeting face-to-face. But for many people divulging their surname on the Internet is not necessarily a wise decision. This can't really be all that difficult to understand, can it?

So, yeah, "Superluthierguitargodmonkeyboy" may not be cool around here, but if "George L" doesn't sit well with you, I'm afraid you're not seeing the big picture.
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
And thanks for fully typing Public Service Announcement. Whenever someone writes PSA, I always think it's going to be a discussion on Pressure Sensitive Adhesives. :)
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
David Collins wrote:
And thanks for fully typing Public Service Announcement. Whenever someone writes PSA, I always think it's going to be a discussion on Pressure Sensitive Adhesives. :)

OR Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA) Test bliss
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
George L wrote:
And every time this is brought up someone has to be the real "bad guy" and point out that there are many perfectly valid personal and professional reasons why one might not want to reveal their full identity on an online forum that is accessible to the general public.

Yeah, we had a good discussion about this recently http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10112&t=45544
I argued in favor of handles. But ultimately it's up to Lance.
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
DennisK wrote:
George L wrote:
And every time this is brought up someone has to be the real "bad guy" and point out that there are many perfectly valid personal and professional reasons why one might not want to reveal their full identity on an online forum that is accessible to the general public.

Yeah, we had a good discussion about this recently http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10112&t=45544
I argued in favor of handles. But ultimately it's up to Lance.


I would prefer names, but I do understand the reasons behind some wanting to remain anonymous.
I would rather have the perks of a great lutherie brain here behind a handle than not here at all. [:Y:]
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
George L wrote:
And every time this is brought up someone has to be the real "bad guy" and point out that there are many perfectly valid personal and professional reasons why one might not want to reveal their full identity on an online forum that is accessible to the general public. If you're talking about given names, like George for example, then yes, it is nice when we can address one another in a familiar manner, just as we would if meeting face-to-face. But for many people divulging their surname on the Internet is not necessarily a wise decision. This can't really be all that difficult to understand, can it?

So, yeah, "Superluthierguitargodmonkeyboy" may not be cool around here, but if "George L" doesn't sit well with you, I'm afraid you're not seeing the big picture.


Most of you know that I'm on record for using real names and I've explained why in the past. I've also offered the fact... that I know many pros who will not participate here anymore or join because pros have skin in the game and getting flamed by heavymetalvomitdude who has nothing to lose is pretty unfair, unwelcome, and who needs it.

So there is the very real concern that if a forum does not wish to be self-limiting as to participation or be guilty of breathing our own air over and over again with no new blood coming in and contributing real names are likely to improve the neighborhood at least in the sense of the quality of information.

George's post caught my eye and moved me as well - thanks George! I understand what he is conveying and agree that real names can be problematic as well. I personally was stalked by someone who I never met but exchanged emails with on match.com.... Lance remembers this I believe too. In separate incidents I had one forum member impersonate another member and make harassing phone calls to me and my family.... There are still a very few individuals who are former members who only show up when there is a dispute and they wish to pile on. They make no contributions to the forum only use the place to harm others.... The point here is that George's concerns are valid and even though I want to see real names George is correct that depending on the room and group.... it could be problematic for some.

I'll add that as for George I've done business with George before and I think that both of us have some trust of each other or at least that's my hope. I have complete trust in George! I would be very keen to accept George participating any way that he wishes, real name or not because I have experience that he is a great guy and very much here for what we should be here for.

So he got me thinking and I have a suggestion that may get us to where we wish to go in the future and be painless, completely painless to all of us who are here now.

1) We grandfather in who's here - everyone including the dead guy who is using another person's real name who died 3 years ago..... Some of us know who this is anyway - nice try - you failed...

2) For new members and all of this has to be completely up to our gracious host Lance as well we require some form of identity verification prior to letting them use any handle that they wish. This could be a real value add for sponsors too....

As such real names may not be displayed but starting when and if this is adopted there is a trail, if ever needed... as to who someone is.

I for one would feel better about this solution thinking that I have some assurances in the future that heavymetalvomitdude is not some person... who is long gone from the trade/hobby but looking to harm others as the primary motivation for being here. I also suspect that George would appreciate this too because it also potentially lowers the risk for anyone and everyone participating because at least going forward if need be Lance will know the real names of all new members.

As a pro Luthier I don't want to have to look at a screen name and profile and decide if I want to contribute to someone and instead can do what I want to do and that is help everyone as often as I can.

I participate on a few highly political forums.... and enjoy same very much. I use my real name on some and a screen name on others as required.

My point here is that some of the political forums do just what I am describing here and require identity verification prior to participation and your screen name can be what ever you wish. It seems to work in so much as in my political world and regardless of far more vitriol often displayed than is displayed here I've never been stalked or harassed as a result of that participation. Yet...

So how about it Lance how would you feel and this is more work for you too my friend if you required identity verification prior to admission and the rest of us all trust and depend on you as we always have for the security layer that this provides? Heavymetalvomitdude can live again here on the OLF but at least this time we know that Lance knows who he/she is.

George since this would require no changes for you how do you feel about it?

Brian you started this thread and I thank you kindly for doing so - would this work for you?
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
LanceK wrote:
David Collins wrote:
And thanks for fully typing Public Service Announcement. Whenever someone writes PSA, I always think it's going to be a discussion on Pressure Sensitive Adhesives. :)

OR Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA) Test bliss


Do we have to be bringing up prostates as I sit here with a stint up my Mr. Happy going into my left kidney..... :cry: :D
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
LanceK wrote:
DennisK wrote:
George L wrote:
And every time this is brought up someone has to be the real "bad guy" and point out that there are many perfectly valid personal and professional reasons why one might not want to reveal their full identity on an online forum that is accessible to the general public.

Yeah, we had a good discussion about this recently http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10112&t=45544
I argued in favor of handles. But ultimately it's up to Lance.


I would prefer names, but I do understand the reasons behind some wanting to remain anonymous.
I would rather have the perks of a great lutherie brain here behind a handle than not here at all. [:Y:]


That's exactly how I feel too - maybe we can do both?
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
This subject could get real deep and very complicated. If I were to insure that I verified everybody's identity before they posted under an assumed handle, I would be putting myself at risk of being duped and then being guilty of not verifying members good enough et.al.
I would also be putting myself in the position of having or at least knowing personal information in which carries with it another set of risk factors.
I am willing to expose those risk factors to myself and ultimately my family.

I don't want to be sued because I "verified" Mr White as Mr Pink, but it turned out that MR Pink was Mr Blonde. Its got to be the honor system.
Gratuitous Reservoir Dogs reference.

Attachment:
reservoir-dogs-dining-scene.jpg
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Personally, I don't care what you call yourself, I care about how you behave.

If B. Howard makes a post on anything finish related, I sit down and take notes, 'cause I've read enough of his posts to know that it can pretty much be taken as gospel.

If heavymeatalvomitdude ripostes, and has proven his contributions as valueless, I will skim read just in case but mostly dismiss it as blah blah.

I know I used this place for a long time with no name as job preservation, for at my last job, those interested in building guitars had much shorter career arcs.

As it says right at the top, be nice, no cussing, and enjoy. Simple, easy rules to follow in Lance's living room, regardless of what you call yourself.

-Arthur
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Thank Mr Bond ;-)
Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
I really don't care either way . I am in agreement with the point that certain people I take keen interest in their post because they are proven. As well as the point of attitude and behavior . Those are the center points of my thought . If someone wants to pile on to Big Jim , who knows , one day I May knock on your door .

Maybe I should add laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe
Author:  George L [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
All good points above. Big Jim jokes about showing up on someone's door, but sadly, that can and does happen. That's an extreme example, of course, but there are other, more benign reasons for protecting ones full identity.

All in all, this forum is remarkably adept at moderating itself. On the rare occasions when a member, anonymous or not, might get out of line, one of the regulars typically puts a stop to that right quick. Like Brian and most everyone else, I think it's wonderful that we're basically all on a first name basis here. It's part of the charm of the OLF and I would encourage all participants to adopt this convention. However, as noted above, that doesn't mean I think it's always a good idea for everyone to give out their full name, place of residence, etc.

Thanks for the endorsement, Hesh! You're a good man, my friend.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
WudWerkr wrote:
I really don't care either way . I am in agreement with the point that certain people I take keen interest in their post because they are proven. As well as the point of attitude and behavior . Those are the center points of my thought . If someone wants to pile on to Big Jim , who knows , one day I May knock on your door .


I had better be careful then, Big Jim knows where I live.

I, for the most part, agree with the notion that I weigh the advice I receive against my perception of the giver (here and in real life). That said, one thing we need to keep in mind is that everything typed here lives on indefinitely and that many people lurk for a good long time when first getting into this as a hobby. It takes a long time to figure out who's ideas are well thought out and rooted in experience and peer discussion, and who is waxing philosophical based on lore. For me, it is much faster to keep track of my impressions of a real name than a silly handle. Of course, the easiest for me is a distinctive avatar.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Lance all good points and let's drop that idea all together in that I would never want to put you and yours at any risk what so ever. You do have attack horses however... :) I was simply trying to come up with a solution that might suit many perspectives.

It seems that what we have now is not only most of the time pretty special but likely the only thing that works. I can accept that so don't let me be the problem here.

Mr. Bond has a cool name and I wonder if his very cool guitars are shaken and not stirred.... :)

I also love Reservoir Dogs and IIRC it was made back in the day for something like $50K.... Amazing and I think that I also remember that Harvey donated his talents to the effort.

Anyway the last thing that we need to be doing is having a Reservoir Dogs three way stand off because in the film everyone got wounded or worse.... :)

George thanks much for that - you made my day and the feeling is very much mutual too!

Back to Lance - You know Lance there was another forum several years ago that ran for a couple of years and it was pros only with identity verification as well. Real names were required, no one ever flamed anyone else or showed up at that door. It was civil, had around 150 of some of the biggest names in the biz, and there were lots of great threads and as for me I just ate it all up. Being able to hear Turner about nitro becoming 100 years old or Dan E. or Frank F. or Linda M. etc. and many, many others provided me with a level of value never experienced prior. I also think that anyone would benefit from this so long as the rules that that forum operated under, we called it the "Vegas" rule, what happened there stayed here were maintained.

In my thinking searching for a solution my belief is what if a solution could be had that made George happy, me happy with real names but not required by all, and you, Lance happy too without risk or undo work. What if too it could take the OLF to the next level a level never held prior and what if it could make the forum more profitable, vibrant, informative, while still retaining the opportunity for folks who wish to become real friends instead of simply virtual friends.

When the forum that I speak of closed down it was not at all for a lack of participation but instead the forum owner decided to get a real job and suspended or cut back his Lutherie activities. Or, in other words the business model worked very well in all respects that I know of but eventually was shut down because of life's events for the forum owner.

Perhaps a second iteration of the OLF would be the way forward while maintaining the current version. I speak of a sub forum that requires identification verification but is only open to working pros who the majority of our incomes come from Lutherie. That was the standard of the forum that I speak of too.

What would be new and different about it is that the pro forum would provide access to all in the form of read-only access so that newer folks could for the first time in human history at least have read-only access to some of the names that we all are interested in hearing what they have to say? The new forum would be put together or recreated in the image of the forum that I speak of but with sponsor links, etc. to drive revenue and offset costs.

This could be a growth opportunity and perhaps just what you might be interested in Lance. Additionally although the pro forum was self moderating and worked you could enlist the assistance of others to help keep the thing up and running.

In another sense as well even though there would separation of the two forums we all know what setting the stage or climates are and with the pros setting their own standard for civility that I know from experience to be very good it may, I say may, help keep the original OLF civil too by example.

And then there is Big Jim!!! Jim you can darken my doorway anytime you wish just let me know what kind of beer you like! :)
Author:  Dan K [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
David Collins wrote:
And thanks for fully typing Public Service Announcement. Whenever someone writes PSA, I always think it's going to be a discussion on Pressure Sensitive Adhesives. :)


As a man in the label industry I appreciate this :D

I think most new people, including myself, never knew that the intention was to portray real names. I would have had no problem displaying Dan K as my name rather then a few lines down in my bio, but it was never something that showed up in the sign up requirements, suggestions, or forum rules. Expect an email Lance.

- Dan K -
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Hesh, I like your idea a lot.
Let me work on it. I know I can set permissions, create sub forums etc.
Right now I am in the middle of a new "marketplace" for the OLF. But as soon as that is up and running I think I will pick you brain on this subject and get something like this going.
Maybe we can do lunch?
The "everybody can read" thing makes if perfect. I dont want to exclude anyone anywhere.
But requiring "permissions" to be set forth to "write" with in a subforum for Pros might be an excellent way to bring back some of the names we miss and also bring some of the the folks that have never been.

Thanks for the food for though buddy!
Author:  Dave Baley [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
I don't mind using my real name but if the OLF database gets hacked and published on the web and my wife finds out I have secretly been lusting after the back/sides of some dreamy KOA OM with a Brazillian French Polish, I'm gonna be in real trouble.
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Dave Baley wrote:
I don't mind using my real name but if the OLF database gets hacked and published on the web and my wife finds out I have secretly been lusting after the back/sides of some dreamy KOA OM with a Brazillian French Polish, I'm gonna be in real trouble.



Life is short Dave. Eat Drink
Author:  James Orr [ Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Public service announcement.
Lance is remarkably flexible.

I thought about asking him to change my handle to, "InTheEyesOfARanger," or "TheEyesOfARangerAreUponYou," but instead I asked for "Pandasaurus".
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