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| Saddle and pick guard question http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46179 |
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| Author: | Jaqaliah [ Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Saddle and pick guard question |
I recently saw a Greek instrument being played where the pick guard went all the way past the bridge. The body was very small - no bigger than a tea cup saucer. I was wondering if anyone had ever made the saddle for the bridge and the pick guard out of a single piece of wood. Maybe bloodwood, ebony, persimon, or snakewood so that all the energy would be transmitted through both bridge and guard to the soundboard? 
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
Jaqaliah wrote: I recently saw a Greek instrument being played where the pick guard went all the way past the bridge. Well now that didn't seem to help the Greek economy any now did it.....  Kidding of course and welcome to the forum! I just noticed that no one had replied to you so I thought that I would at least welcome you! Don't have an answer for you either and when that happens that none of us have an answer for you it could be one of several things. 1) We don't understand what the heck you are talking about....  <===== Please note smiley face2) We don't understand what you are trying to accomplish, this is mostly a guitar building forum. 3) You are asking for something that none of us have any experience with. Anyway what's the end game, what are you trying to accomplish, what problem(s) are you attempting to solve? Give it up dude and tell us more because so far you have stumped the chumps here.... Again welcome to the OLF! |
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| Author: | Jaqaliah [ Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
I tried to play guitar when I was about 3 or 4. Couldn't push down the strings, but always loved the sound. My grandmother tried to make me into a pianist for church and my mother would only spring for cornet. Never got to try and play an instrument I liked. About 10 years ago, I tried to do a kit build on a Strumbly. Botched that by getting about as square as a corkscrew. Recently made a cigar box guitar, and learned a few things about me trying to play it. I can't reach the positions at the upper end of a 25" scale. I worked out from what positions I can work that I need a 20.25" scale. I also found tuning in 4ths rather than 5ths more functional for my reach. Further, I discovered I need about 7/16th minimum between the strings. My fingers aren't long enough to get the arch a lot of players have for playing. So, I have been designing my own instrument from what I have learned. I like the idea of a pick guard, but plunking down some chunk of celluloid on my red spruce, Peruvian walnut, and bloodwood rankles. I am by no means some skilled craftsman doing masterful carvings, marquetry, and inlay - so I want the simple beauty of the wood to make up for what I lack in skill. I have decided to go with an oud tuning (C# F# B E A D), a round body, 20.25" scale. Because there is nothing available in what I want I have to make all the pieces myself. Ouds have 11 strings, though I might cut it down to just 6 - not sure yet. Another option I have is using a 30" scale, which would give me the same sound board distance between the bridge and the section of the fretless board I want to play, start the oud tuning at the 8th fret, and place the sound of the instrument more in my vocal range with the strings becoming F1-A#1-D#2-G#2-C#3-F#3. Then of course the problem would be getting strings. The other I can already purchase in sets. I have been attempting to figure out how I want to do the pick guard with the least amount of contradiction to my sense of aesthetics. Designing it from the saddle as one piece of shaped bloodwood is a possibility. It is only a possibility if there isn't a reason to avoid doing it that way. The only instrument I have seen it on was not designed for volume of sound, but more for playing in a small circle of friends and family. My general observation so far is that instruments tend to be made with only minimal variations in size off of very traditional patterns. Even when people get creative by using wild materials such as a bed pan or concrete they tend not to change the actual pieces involved with whichever traditional pattern from which they model. I suspect no body has tried this in recent or historical memory because they were making the traditional instrument. Modern electrics seem to mostly use saddles that are metal insets surrounded by modern materials, paints, etc. Resonators don't really need pickguards as the cone cover makes them largely obsolete. So, I thought I would come to a group of acoustic masters and ask if there is a problem with making the guard and the saddle a one piece unit. |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
You are well beyond me from a design standpoint, with that in mind I can not think of any sonic benefits from having the pick guard and saddle combined. If the pick guard part was thin enough it might not hinder the saddle movements too much. But all and all I would see it as a negative. You might consider making them out of the same wood but not one finished piece. |
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| Author: | Jaqaliah [ Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
That is largely what I suspect as well. I am concerned the guard might dampen the sound. I am concerned about that anyway, regardless of what I use. I had hoped the combo would transfer the energy throughout the guard instead of it merely being dead weight on the soundboard. |
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| Author: | Cush [ Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
The bridge and saddle are key components. They effect tone and playability both. Bridge saddle location is critical to intonation. The weight of the bridge effects tone. The pickguards purpose is largely decorative. The bridge and saddle should be independent of the optional pickgaurd IMO. Pickgaurds often have a negative influence on tone. |
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| Author: | PeterF [ Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
Sounds like an interesting project! Have you thought about attaching the pickguard to the fingerboard instead of the bridge? The problem with connecting it to the bridge, as others have said, is that the bridge is very weight sensitive and a big lump of pickguard attached to it will not do the sound any good. The fingerboard, on the other hand, is not. You could even go a step further and 'float' the pickguard over the top like archtop guitars do. That way you don't lose any sound at all. In my opinion, the best way with projects like these is to just start building. Don't over-think everything. Just make it how you imagine it and if it doesn't work the way you want, figure out what went wrong and build another a bit better. Btw, a sketch of your idea would help us understand better what you have in mind. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
I would add to the above advice to make a full scale prototype without using your fancy woods. With so many nonstandard variables and this being an early attempt in your learning process, you are likely to encounter unforeseen pitfalls and blunder along the way. You can learn a lot from that effort without wishing you hadn't messed up your good wood. My very first instrument was designed on the fly and using mostly junk wood I happened to have. I did't expect to finish it. Instead, I was just practicing various steps I thought would go into it. It ended up being completed and it was an awesome feeling. Looking back, I'm glad I didn't' use nice timber. |
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| Author: | Jaqaliah [ Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Saddle and pick guard question |
This isn't the instrument I originally saw, though it is I think the same type. It occurs to me that a cover of similar shape made out of the same as the body, floated an 1/8 to a 1/4 inch above the soundboard could work. It could potentially be carved on, inlayed, or have a decorative f-hole carved where it doesn't need to act as a guard. The work in this picture is way beyond my patience level, but gorgeous. 
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