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Headstock Inlay Questions
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45448		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Jimmyjames [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Headstock Inlay Questions
Here's my inlay plan. I just drew out some lettering on some wood to get a feel for where it will live. I've never cut Mother of Pearl and don't know what's feasible. Can I, with a jewelers saw and some blades cut a shape this complex? Or are the things I see like this done with laser beams by the light of the full moon?

Thoughts or critiques on my headstock design? Am I going too far?

My original thought was to put only the "J" on the headstock and the other at the twelfth fret position marker but it would be very small and hence more challenging to cut. I'm not intimidated by cutting the negative space in the wood, but cutting the pearl accurately and without breaking on these fine sections.

How many sheets of MOP should I expect to ruin before I get this right? I do have exceptional fine motor skills but hey I've never done this before so...

Can abrasive cord be used to successfully shape ultra fine MOP as in the barbs of the lettering?

Thanks for your insight,

-j
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
Letters with fine lines like your design are the most challenging type of inlay. You should start off with something easier if you hope to pull off an inlay that looks good. Instead of using abrasive cord to clean up the inlay, use jeweler's needle files.
Author:  Tom West [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
I doubt I could cut those long thin lines. But am sure others with a higher skill lever can. Hope you are going to cut your pearl before insetting the wood...??? Practice and patience will lead to success.
Tom
Author:  rtpipkin [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
That's doable with a saw. A jeweler's saw, like Barry says.

Like Tom says, practice first and then be patient, and go slow.

Be sure to let the saw cut the shell before pushing forward and pay attention to keeping the blade straight up and down, 90 degrees to the shell, so there is a constant width all the way through the shell on those thin lines. You could also glue the shell to a wood backing to stabilize the shell while cutting.

Another option is to cut outside the lines with a saw and then gently file to the exact shape. I don't like doing that myself because of the risk of snapping the shell after doing all the cutting work.

If the shell breaks, don't freak out. If the break is clean you can probably use CA to repair it after finishing all the cutting. But you'll need to fill the crack completely so it doesn't show up under finish. If the break is not clean I'd still finish cutting the entire shape and then look at it after cutting is complete and decide, just for practice if nothing else. There may be other areas of the shape you want to approach cutting differently as well.
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
The fine lines are definitely risky. Use fine blades, because you can't really clean up rough edges with a file afterward when things are that fragile. It's also tough to route a perfect pocket for fine line stuff, and then get it pressed in without cracking. I had an incident with this recently, cracking the skinny bit at the start of the curl on my logo. Can't really see the crack in the photo, and I don't think anyone but me would notice it in person either, but still frustrating :P
Attachment:
LogoInlay.jpg


What about doing the logo in wood? Then you could use separate pieces for the fine lines. Just straight strips of wood, bent and forced into the pocket.
Author:  Jimmyjames [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
That's beautiful. You can certainly call yourself a craftsman. Stunning work. I really like your (what's the technical term?) work at the end of the headstock: original, understated, uniquely classic. I strive for the same ideals but in my own hand. I do really even like the plainest cowboy cut but when I see something like you've shown here and my imagination runs wild.

Is there a standard for headstock length? Case fitment issues? Tonal/volume qualities affected? Can I do whatever my knife desires?

Thanks,

-j

-oO
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
That looks like it will make a nice inlay. (is the second letter a little cocked?).

It will be a difficult one to do for two reasons. The fine lines are very narrow. You may want to make them a little wider. That would make it go much easier, not that inlay is ever easy. Another option would be to have Andy DePaule cut the pearl out and then you could inlay them.

The other reason is the wood you are inlaying in is on the light side. That means if you rout out a little too much here and there it will show (badly). I find it impossible to fill those gaps in light colored wood without it showing.

With such ambitious projects in mind it would be invaluable for you to get the how to inlay DVD set from Larry Robinson.
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
Jimmyjames wrote:
That's beautiful. You can certainly call yourself a craftsman. Stunning work. I really like your (what's the technical term?) work at the end of the headstock: original, understated, uniquely classic. I strive for the same ideals but in my own hand. I do really even like the plainest cowboy cut but when I see something like you've shown here and my imagination runs wild.

Is there a standard for headstock length? Case fitment issues? Tonal/volume qualities affected? Can I do whatever my knife desires?

Thanks :) The term you're looking for is "crest". And the reason nobody else uses this shape is because it's a big pain to cut out (can't be done with a router (not that I have a router setup anyway)), and an even bigger pain to bind :lol: Can't bend most woods that tight, so I have to cut out the two curvy pieces like inlays. This one will be bound in pink ivory. As you can see, I already made the initial score marks, but then I decided to wait until I get the box closed up and bindings done on that, incase I break any when bending. Then I can use the pieces for the headstock here and not waste a fresh strip on it.

The main technical requirement of headstock dimensions is that the tuners fit, and can get the strings to the nut slots without running into any other tuner posts. Extra length beyond that is mostly a matter of appearance. Not sure what the maximum length for standard cases is... I guess it also depends on the scale length of the guitar. But 12 strings have really long headstocks, so if they fit in the same cases as 6 strings, then I think it would start to look silly before getting too long for the case. Mine is 6 1/4", which is shorter than most.
Author:  Jimmyjames [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
Only the j will be on the head stock. Letters are just drawn together for a matched feel.

I'm going to use ebony for headpiece veneer. So I will be able to hide errors in the black.

Might come to having someone saw it for me. Not sure yet.

Dennis, I have the sort of know-how and tools to do a crest. We have in common our lack of power routers.

As long as there's no requirements. I purposefully left my headstock really long so I could experiment. My end target is seven. I'll probably just cut if off straight but who knows?

Thanks for both of your insights,

-j
Author:  Jimmyjames [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
What about breakage? Do crests end up splitting and breaking?
Author:  Haans [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
Good luck with that one...
This is about as close as DePaule could get my logo and they are very good hand cutters.

Image

The inlay breaks very easily.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
I've found that by gluing the shell to a veneer backer it helps to minimize the breakage while cutting. I just toss the veneer and shell in some hot water after cutting and it shell separates from the veneer.
Author:  Haans [ Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
Another thing you can do is glue the shell blank to the headstock veneer, then saw both the veneer and shell at the same time. When you are done, remove the scrap shell from the headstock, flip the headstock over and glue the shell flush to the veneer. This will leave the shell backer part of the inlay cutout proud on the back side, so all you have to do is sand that off.
Author:  cphanna [ Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
I think everyone's experience with MOP is a little different. I've done it ONCE and I didn't have any mishaps. I intentionally designed an inlay without fine lines. It seemed to me that I could feel the blade cutting more quickly in some directions. Perhaps this was due to varying density in the MOP or perhaps I was following a sort of grain orientation. I only broke one blade, but a bought a few dozen in anticipation of many breaks. I also wiped the full length of the blade with a dab of paste wax--including the teeth. This seemed to help the blade run smoothly and easily without binding.

I was concerned about ruining the head stock when routing the inlets, so I left the headstock in its rectangular shape at first. I used a thick head plate (also rectangular) and routed my inlets OFF the banjo. Then I glued the head plate on and cut the head to shape. That worked very well for me.

I think you already know this next part, but I'll say it anyway: Wear a good respirator mask. That fine dust can imbed in your lungs.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
Not only those fine lines is hard to cut without breaking everything into tiny pieces, but it will be really hard to install without showing a huge amount of shadow too. Consider making the line wider, and use dark wood as the peg face as well. Even Gibson will cheat sometimes by inlaying a large block of pearl into the headstock and then putting decal over the inlay to make it say Gibson.

If it's too intricate consider outsourcing to a CNC shop... or change the design to make it easier...
Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
I'm going to at least give it a shot and order three MOP blanks. Well wait, is MOP the best material for this sort of thing? I don't know the differences between abalone, mop, et cetera? If I don't get it after three chances I'll pay an expert to do it. I called a place to enquire about custom services and it seemed extremely cheap. They guesstimated the "j" at $12.

Is the decal masking visible?
Author:  Andy Birko [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
I've cut a lot of MOP inlays for a lot of different folks with my CNC machine and I'll make lines as narrow as .016" all day long with no breakage. Something you might consider - when I cut a MOP inlay, I always CA or PVA glue it to an MDF substrate for machining. With a full gluing like that, there's no risk of any breakage.

I would think that you could do the same when cutting by hand to give the MOP a little added strength for some fine filing/sanding once it's completed. After you're satisfied, just drop the whole thing into boiling water until it releases. You might not try to go as fine as .016" for your fine lines but you might be able to come close.

I've attached a couple of pics of a couple inlays I've done with some size references in there. In both of these inlays, the finest lines are .016" wide or maybe just a smidge wider (the smallest cutter I will use is a 1/64). Remember that these are zoomed way in!!!
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
Andy has done some logo inlays for me also. He is excellent to work with and does an incredible job.
Author:  Jimmyjames [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock Inlay Questions
You set the controls for stun. Wowza! I'm awestruck. Thanks for the tip of CA to substrate. Still might be calling on you.

-j
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