Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Power pins

Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Power pins http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44936	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Ken Lewis [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Power pins
My nephew passed this link along to me, no affiliation. What do y'all think. Looks gimmicky to me. https://fret12.com/news/those-pins-dont ... r-acoustic Ken

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
Not trying to be unkind but this is OOS (Oil Of Snake....). What is likely happening here is that the difference that some people perceive that is happening is a result of adding a great deal of mass to a likely not-so-previously-responsive instrument. As such it may be that these things that look like a trip to the orthodontist... may improve the tone on some instruments that may be over built. On the OLF in the past we have debated bridge pin material. Some folks insisted that they perceived a difference in tone resulting from material selection. I was one of these sorts with the operative being the "was" word.... Then along came Al C. who systematically and methodically in a way that only Al can explained the implications of differences in mass applied to this very sensitive area of the top. All of a sudden my bone bridge pins had a reason why I thought they added tone (and tinniness....) to one of my guitars with that reason being more mass... In the very same respect with certain overly built instruments the addition of a Gibson Tune-o-matic bridge might be perceived as doing something positive.... But who wants to look at that??? As such I remain in the camp that a well built, well thought out, instrument without excessive mass can be as highly responsive as anything else out here. Guess this makes me a purest.... One last thing - we frequently replace those awful plastic bridges with lots of metal hardware that came on certain lower end Gibsons in the 60's or so. The replacement is a shop made, rosewood bridge that can be 40 grams lighter than what we removed from the thing. After it's all said and done these instruments do sound noticeably more responsive, louder, etc. Sure the wood may be contributing but what I believe to most likely be the difference is shedding 40 grams right smack in the center of the sweet spot of the top. Power pins would like us to add a bunch of mass.... seems counter to me.... In an effort to be positive though, they look nicely made.....

Author:	weslewis [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
that is pretty cool!!!!

Author:	SteveSmith [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
+1 on what Hesh said. Looks like a serious tone killer to me and a solution looking for a problem that's not really there. On the positive side I guess you wouldn't have to worry about the ball ends tearing up the bridge plate

Author:	weslewis [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
I would wonder about the weight added as well, seeing how I go out of my way to make light bridges??

Author:	DannyV [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
I too wonder what it weigh? Funny. All the years I have played guitars has pulling bridge pins been much of a big deal. Maybe I'm not doing it right. I would say try them an hear how they sound. Let us know.

Author:	David Collins [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
I think they have value in several ways. 1) To extend the life of a economy guitar with a lifting bridge which is not worth having properly reglued, or which has serious bridge plate wear not worth repairing. Good for disposable guitars in the Esteban/Walmart level which are cheaper to replace with an equivalent Musical Instrument Shaped Product than they are to maintain and repair. 2) For extremely lazy players who can't be bothered with the 10-15 extra seconds involved with using conventional pins. 3) For use as a practice mute, like the little weighted clips students attach to their violin or banjo bridges, which quiet the instrument by adding mass/inertia/impedance to the bridge and top. Acknowledged, the last point is a bit in jest, as the added mass would unlikely be near enough to create and huge affect on final volume, but is a clear step in that direction none the less. In fact it's quite possible that some instruments could indeed sound better to some players with a change in this direction - this is very subjective, and within a reasonable range, less mass is not always objectively "better" here. Still, the claims in their marketing are so laughably absurd that I can't retain much professional respect for their product, regardless as to whether or not it may hold any benefit for some players and instruments. It's like Tylenol - sure, it's great for backaches and hangovers. Once they start advertising it to make you run faster, increase your IQ by 30 points, and make you irresistible to women or men, then I'd rather suffer a throbbing headache all day than support a company which proclaims such nonsense. I see no serious harm in it (aside from likely detracting from tone more often than enhancing it), so the non-invasive removable design is a plus. I also see no need for it beyond a cheap fix for bridge or plate damage, and in my opinion it's quite an aesthetic detriment as well.

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
The guy in the video seems to be Tracy from Guitar Tech Corner in Ventura CA. A check of their website shows that they appear to be a respected shop with some well known clientele. Orientation more towards electrics. http://www.guitartechcorner.com Maybe we should not be so quick to criticize until we actually try a set. The guitar in the video didn't sound any worse. Probably best on an overbuilt or cheaper instrument as mentioned. String takeoff might give a break angle problem with a low saddle. Bridge plate transducers like a pure western would be difficult. Wonder if they reduce feedback? Could be another club in the bag for the right situation. I could see them on a rock guitarist's acoustic plugged in on a loud stage. They are ugly but not any uglier than a Kyser capo stuck on the headstock.

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
A large part of my personal revulsion to after market offerings making stratospheric claims of improved this and that is that it's as counter as one can get to what my personal objectives are when crafting a new acoustic guitar. Not seeing myself as setting out to build a copy of a Tak or Epiphone or any lower end instrument mind you and instead with the focus being on high-performance, high-end instruments for adult players I see something such as the power pins as waving the to the idea that I have the skill to produce a superior sounding instrument.... In other words they are a shining, ugly example of a failed instrument..... I also see power pins as not unlike installing a PAF on an acoustic guitar, someone, some where is going to claim tonal nirvana and hear a positive difference. Or, in other words it's contrary to the view of a purest and someone who believes that some of the mysteries of milking tone from an acoustic guitar are not all that mysterious and can be harnessed to do our desired bidding. I said "some"... not all..... Long ago there was a company called Tech HiFi. It was a chain store out of the MIT area IIRC and they had stores all over the US. They promoted stereo equipment including some high-end stuff. Brands such as Infinity, Ohm were introduced by them and other established brands such as Advent and the AR turn table were also sold there. The president of the company was a MIT grad also IIRC and he had done research with Henry Kloss (RIP) and determined that we human bags of mostly water usually perceive louder to be better.... They had done blind listening tests using the very same sources of sound/music but with one test being 10% louder than the other test. The overwhelming majority of participants voted that louder was better.... This led to Tech HiFi installing patch boards in all of their stores where there were electronics in the background that normalized volume levels when switching back and forth between two or three sets of speakers so that the prospective client could experience the tone of the individual speakers without the volume boost associated with impedance differences. Anyway long story short it's a toss up depending on how any guitar is built that these power pins are tested on if more mass may improve response and subsequent perceived volume. I have no doubt that as mentioned an over built Asian instrument with miles of thick finish... may sound better with the pins. But I also suspect that better is being confused for louder as in the Tech HiFi tests. Don't know about everyone else but my suspicion is that many of us when we build use every trick in the book that we know of to milk tone from our creations. From bone nuts and saddles to careful choices of "tonewood" to efforts to keep mass at a minimum to desired break angles, string distance from the top, etc. what we build should out perform f*ctory instruments hands down. That's a personal opinion and belief mind you as well as a personal goal... As such dropping in something that looks like these do... is aftermarket, is specifically promoted as a way to improve a substandard sounding instrument.... is so very counter to the psychology of what most or many of us are setting out to do it's no wonder the negativity.... Hence the negativity from me with the explanation of why on a number of levels, counter to what my objectives and goals are, ugly, wrong causation attributed to perceived improvements (the added mass thing) and a healthy batch of I'm so sick of all the snake oil associated with Lutherie that perhaps my mind is closing more and more with the passage of time.... But again I don't doubt that these things may improve the perceived tone and volume of some instruments, particularly over built instruments. My revulsion stems from the notion that these would improve one of mine after all I've set out to accomplish in how and what I build... OTOH I suspect that they will sell a ton of them....

Author:	Clay S. [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
Changing the weight and stiffness of the bridge can have a great effect on the sound of a guitar. Sometimes a heavier bridge gives a "better" sound. This is a subjective judgement of course - some like greater sustain while some prefer louder initial response.

Author:	kencierp [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
Cannot get my comment beyond --- ugly!

Author:	Tim L [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
They sure don't do much for the break angle do they? Looks like an over engineered solution for a problem that I haven't encountered since I bought the plastic pin pullers from Stew Mac for under $1 ( OK they cost $2 now )

Author:	uvh sam [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
Their sales rep called us one day so I talked with him and asked him a few questions about them. He said they are really light, they only weigh a couple ounces!

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
uvh sam wrote: Their sales rep called us one day so I talked with him and asked him a few questions about them. He said they are really light, they only weigh a couple ounces! It's been a while Sam since I had metric conversions memorized but my widget here says a couple of ounces is 56.69 grams. Let's see that would be like Somogyi stacking two bridges on a single top. It's also very close to half the weight of an LMI or Allied double action rod.... They do look a bit more comfortable as a place to rest one's hand even though this is not recommended.... This morning it finally occurred to me what these pins remind me of: Not to be unkind this poor man passed in Sept. last year, RIP.

Author:	David Collins [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
They could be a perfect addition to the adjustable bridge on an old Gibson Dove.

Author:	James Ringelspaugh [ Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
I wonder why no builders/factories use these as stock pins... if they work as advertised surely they'd give a builder a competitive advantage...

Author:	jfmckenna [ Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Power pins
I just don't think it's that hard to change strings <shrugs> The bit about better intonation is total BS. The marketing is over the top. If I was going to use those they would have to be in black but that's a personal choice.

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/