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| bridge pins - redwood burl? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44907 |
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| Author: | Robert Lak [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | bridge pins - redwood burl? |
I need to update my build thread but I have made some progress on my build. Bridge was glued on last week and the end is in sight. I was fawning over the last set of pics (not posted yet) and realized it might be neat to have a set of pins made from the same burl as the rosette... it's redwood but very hard and I think it would shape OK, but would it be an issue of wood against wood? would they tend to stick and be difficult to remove? I guess i could wax them? Additionally, did I see some posts in the past warning against slotting the pins? I have always had cheap slotted pins with no issues, but for some reason it stuck in my head there was controversy over the slots...? Thanx! Rob |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
Hi Robert - Can't comment on the suitability of Redwood burl for bridge pins but I can shed some light on the last part of your post regarding unslotted pins and why they are superior. Back in the day bridge pins were not slotted and instead builders slotted the bridge, top, and bridge plate. What resulted is that the string balls would bear more firmly against the bridge plate and not against the edge of the holes in the bridge plate as is the case these days with slotted pins. Slotted pins were an effort to reduce the steps, the skilled steps necessary to build a guitar or other instrument that uses pins in so much as this would also reduce the manufacturing costs. With the advent of plastics and cheap, molded, mass produced plastic pins the industry went for the cost savings... The down side of plastic pins or any slotted pins is again the string ball bears against the edge of the bridge pin hole in the bridge plate. In time the holes get chewed up and in a bit more time the deformation becomes such an issue that either the bridge plate may need replacement of a bridge plate cap. With unslotted pins this does not happen. We have an 1870's Martin with unslotted pins and the bridge plate looks like new. We also see quite a few pre-war Martins in our shop and other valuable, vintage instruments and it's always the case that when unslotted pins were used bridge plate wear is minimal to nonexistent. Many of us including me have taken this in mind with our own creations and you will find that unslotted pins have a loyal following these days with Luthiers for the reasons mentioned above. Clients also at times request unslotted pin conversion and we of course offer this service as well. It's also important if going the unslotted pin route to be very sure that whom ever ends up with the instrument does not purchase aftermarket slotted pins perhaps for the cosmetics. A slotted pin in a bridge set-up for unslotted pins that has been slotted already can permit the string balls to pull up partially though the pin holes and again cause damage. Some builders set-up instruments for unslotted pins and then use slotted pins turned around. I'm not keen to do this because if the instrument ends up in unknowing hands and the slots get turned back around toward the sound hole damage can occur as well. A related and interesting discussion is 3 degree pins over 5 degree pins. For me 3 degree pins, unslotted is my preference but 5 degree unslotted pins are a very close second. Below is a study/chart that my business partner Dave Collins did some years back. I suspect that by zooming in on the pic that you will be able to read each frame of the chart. Hope this helps! |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
I would think redwood, no matter how hard, would still be a little soft for the shaft of a bridge pin. A laminated pin or one with a large burl inlay might be a better choice. Wood on wood is no problem, it is pretty common. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
IT tends to be quite brittle too. It's possible though that over time the constant use might burnish the pins and give them strength. Burnishing is something you could try as well as perhaps soaking in thin CA. |
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| Author: | Greg B [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
I am pretty sure redwood will be much too weak. Consider manzanita burl. Grows in the same forests, FWIW. It looks pretty similar to redwood burl, but is very very hard. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
I agree with the others; too soft and too brittle. Burl has grain going every which way, which means you could have short grain in the shaft of the pin and crack right in two. Soaking in CA would probably do it, but then the color would be much darker. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
You could always try to stabilize the redwood in a stabilizing fluid..... That would make it tougher. And if you use unsloted pins and relied upon the bridge, top and bridge plate to hold the strings (as Hesh mentioned) you wouldn't need an overly tough pin.... |
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| Author: | Robert Lak [ Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
Thanks all for the input. I'll likely try to make one and see. The brittleness might be an issue. Other than that i'm curious how the plastic slotted pins have affected my old guitar... off to look! |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
Hi, Robert. Hesh's explanation of slotted bridges versus slotted pins illustrates the case for solid pins as well as anything I've seen. Please do follow his advice. That said, experimentation is right at the heart instrument making. I don't see that you have anything to lose by trying redwood pins--except the time you invest. If you're willing, then press on and make a redwood burl pin. If that works out to your satisfaction, see if you can make five more. In my view, the worst that can happen is that you might eventually pull the knob off one while doing a string change. If and when that happens, you can swap them out for a set made with harder wood, or with bone, etc. I'd just add the proviso that you should do this experiment on your own guitar. If building for someone else, then I think you should stick to a more traditional pin material. Please get back to us either way and let us know how it works out. |
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| Author: | Quine [ Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bridge pins - redwood burl? |
You only see the top of the bridge pin so maybe you could just make the tops out of burl. You'd have to be able to turn pretty small bead shaped tops but I guess it could be done Or inlay a set of pins like they do with abalone |
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