Hesh:
I wish that I had heard about aluminum foil turning koa green last year.
It confirms my experience.
Bob
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| bending with super soft. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44820 |
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| Author: | mike-p [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | bending with super soft. |
Hi all, Planning on bending two sets of reclaimed mahogany today, one cuban, one honduran. I wetted then thoroughly last night in super soft two, wrapped them in tin foil and left them overnight. Question is, do I dry them off, or bend them still wet, or dry them and wet them again with water? I'm a beginner and my plan is to heat to 110, clamp the waist partly down, bend lower bout at 110, Upper at 120, finish waist at 130, cook for five Minutes, cool for an hour, cook for another five minutes at 130, cool for an hour and then remove my perfectly bend side with no scorching, crackling, rippling or anything else undesirable.anyone see any problems? Thanks, Mike |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Your talking degrees Celsius, right? |
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| Author: | mike-p [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Yes. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
I had some difficult to bend Honduran mahogany. John Hall gave me this advice and it works, you should be finished up by the time it hits 100c. When mine hit about 150f I have the rear bent, immediately bend the front, then the waist. slightly damp. Can't say about supersoft. Good Luck, O & OO |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
No need to dry the sides. Yes, still use water (although you shouldn't need much). |
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| Author: | Robbie_McD [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Per the SS2 recommendation, I let the sides dry - weighted between paper towel overnight. I believe this avoids staining during heat bending and ensures the SS2 has time to work its magic. I believe 150f is a little cool to be starting the bends - especially with mahogany. Have a peek at John's Hall's excellent youtube tutorials. He starts the bends at 250f which I have found to work well. I do partial waist (1/4" gap) first, then lower bout, upper bout, then finish the waist. By that time the temp is 300f and I flip from full power to variable to cook for 10 mins or so at 300f - done! If using spring steel it is critical to wrap the slats in foil to avoid blackening of the sides. Also, in the sandwich I use a layer of lightly spritzed brown paper on each side of sides for the moisture component rather than spray the wood directly. I use it on figured woods and hog - not needed for EIR.... |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
+1 on all the above. |
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| Author: | mike-p [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Just to report back, bent the first honduran side still wet from super soft, bent very well, quite a lot of staining but it Sands out. Second side I rinsed the super soft off in the shower, towelled it down and left it to mostly dry.also bent very well but with less staining. I'll report back on my flat sawn cuban sides... |
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| Author: | dnf777 [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
I'm sure everyone else already knows this, but just in case you don't.....use aluminum foil to wrap sides. I thought I'd be clever and thrifty and use a roll of brown masking paper. What a mess. Paper 'melted' and bonded with wood (had to sand it off in spots!) and still got staining of wood. (more sanding) Live and learn. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Aluminum foil can be helpful while bending but not-so-much-so if bending Koa or Black Acacia which are well known to turn a bit green.... if in direct contact with metal (this includes bending slats) during the bending process. Instead a craft paper wrap for these woods and you will be good to go without the dreaded green discoloration. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
SS2 is a veneer softener and is used for purposes other than what we do. It will work at the cellular level. In bending I played with a number of ways to use this as we also use heat. I found that just using the SS2 and a allowing about 1 hr of dry time worked well in bending the wood. Maple for what ever reason needs very little water with this and will keep bending is allowed to so clamp that into a mold as soon as it cools. I use heats in F of lower bout 220 to 250F Upper 250 to 275F and waist at 275 + F and then allow the heat to rise to 325 to 375. Mahogany and maple like a bit more heat. Once this heat is reached you back it off as wood will scorch in about 5 min at this temp but you need this sometimes to set the bend. Allow a few about 15 min around 220 F to cook out any moisture and allow to cool ( about 30 min) then clamp into the mold and to the next side. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
mike-p wrote: Just to report back, bent the first honduran side still wet from super soft, bent very well, quite a lot of staining but it Sands out. Second side I rinsed the super soft off in the shower, towelled it down and left it to mostly dry.also bent very well but with less staining. I'll report back on my flat sawn cuban sides... Well, you can lead a horse to water...... Not meaning to be an "old woman", but you were told that SS II is 1) inflammable, and 2) not particularly good for you and also given a link to MSDS sheet, which I did ask you to read. Just to point out 1) Bending a SSII wet side involved heating it to above SSII's flash point temperature in a non-explosion proof fixture 2) Will have produced unnecessarily large quantities of vapour in the area of said fixture (and presumably someone requiring to breath was close by the bender) By all means, feel free to ignore this post, but I felt obliged to point this out. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
I suggest that you go to MIMF, and read Todd Stock's post on using SSII. Says it all! It works best when allowed to dry, for many reasons. |
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| Author: | unkabob [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Hesh: I wish that I had heard about aluminum foil turning koa green last year. It confirms my experience. Bob
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Colin North wrote: mike-p wrote: Just to report back, bent the first honduran side still wet from super soft, bent very well, quite a lot of staining but it Sands out. Second side I rinsed the super soft off in the shower, towelled it down and left it to mostly dry.also bent very well but with less staining. I'll report back on my flat sawn cuban sides... Well, you can lead a horse to water...... Not meaning to be an "old woman", but you were told that SS II is 1) inflammable, and 2) not particularly good for you and also given a link to MSDS sheet, which I did ask you to read. Just to point out 1) Bending a SSII wet side involved heating it to above SSII's flash point temperature in a non-explosion proof fixture 2) Will have produced unnecessarily large quantities of vapour in the area of said fixture (and presumably someone requiring to breath was close by the bender) By all means, feel free to ignore this post, but I felt obliged to point this out. I use SSII so after reading your post, I looked up the MSDS. I'm wondering if you are referencing a different one than the one I found which indicates that SSII is pretty benign overall. Section Three--Immediate Health Hazards • Skin absorption: No hazards known. • Ingestion: Not expected to be harmful under normal conditions of use • Inhalation: No hazards known • Skin: No hazards known • Eyes: Causes irritation Section Five--Fire and Explosion Hazards Combustible. Keep away from heat and flame. In case of fire, use water spray, dry chemical, foam or CO2. Use water to keep fire-exposed containers cool. Section Six--Safe Handling and Personal Protection No special protection necessary. That said, I follow the manufacturer's instructions and, after applying SSII, blot the sides overnight between paper towels under a weight before bending them on my hot pipe. At that point the wood is no longer wet from the SSII. Because of the instructions, it hadn't occurred to me to try bending the sides when wet with SSII. I wouldn't want to breath the vapors anyway just on general principles. Good to know that it's combustible. Also good to know that the MSDA says the storage life is one year at 77 degrees. |
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| Author: | Mike Franks [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
It's easy to remove the green or black stain that is common when bending koa and mahogany. The stain is from the ferrous metal oxidation of the slats. I use Whink Rust Remover diluted 50-50 with water and a spray bottle. The stain disappears almost immediately. http://www.whink.com/index.cfm?fuseacti ... uctID=4328 Mike Franks www.mjfranksguitars.com www.facebook.com/mjfranksguitars |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Has anyone tried using any other brand of veneer softener? Supersoft isn't available north of the border, as far as I know. Alex |
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| Author: | Doug Balzer [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Alex Kleon wrote: Has anyone tried using any other brand of veneer softener? Supersoft isn't available north of the border, as far as I know. Alex Alex - I get SSII ordered into Canada from Veneersupplies.com. Once again its much cheaper to ship to a hotel in the states while visiting than it is to ship across the border. This past summer while in Seattle I picked up a gallon which should last me a very long time. FWIW - I bend on an iron and since using SS I find the bending process to go much easier for ALL woods. I soak the pieces about two hours prior to bending. Then when complete I spray both sides again with SS and clamp into the outside mold and leave overnight. The next morning nearly all bumps and imperfections are gone. Sure this might be all a little overkill but it's working for me. |
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| Author: | mike-p [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Just to Let everyone know that I haven't blown up and my lungs haven't collapsed . Colin, I'd forgotten about the info you'd sent me . John, Thanks for the specific advice, didn't have the nerve to go so hot but went up to 150 degrees Celsius and the bends are nicely set with little springback and minimal staining. I used aluminium slats and greaseproof paper between the blanket and the wood. Thanks all. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
J De Rocher, just an few comments. As you quoted, Quote: Section Five--Fire and Explosion Hazards (Flash Point: ~91C )Combustible. Keep away from heat and flame. And to quote you, Quote: I wouldn't want to breath the vapors anyway just on general principles. MSDS sheet does also say Quote: Section Eight--Control Measures [/quote][/quote] so there is some good common sense in following instructions and also not wanting to breath the vapours.
Engineering controls: The following exposure control techniques may be used to effectively minimize employee exposure: local exhaust ventilation, enclosed system design, process isolation and remote control in combination with appropriate use of personal protective equipment and prudent work practices. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Mike, glad you were successful with the bending, must have felt good 
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Doug Balzer wrote: Alex Kleon wrote: Has anyone tried using any other brand of veneer softener? Supersoft isn't available north of the border, as far as I know. Alex Alex - I get SSII ordered into Canada from Veneersupplies.com. Once again its much cheaper to ship to a hotel in the states while visiting than it is to ship across the border. This past summer while in Seattle I picked up a gallon which should last me a very long time. FWIW - I bend on an iron and since using SS I find the bending process to go much easier for ALL woods. I soak the pieces about two hours prior to bending. Then when complete I spray both sides again with SS and clamp into the outside mold and leave overnight. The next morning nearly all bumps and imperfections are gone. Sure this might be all a little overkill but it's working for me. Thanks Doug. I'm going to get some veneer softener from A&M Wood Specialty in Cambridge, and give it a try on some practice pieces first. Shipping to a US hotel is a good idea. I've got cousins in Michigan, so I could have stuff delivered there, and have a visit. Alex |
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| Author: | Bob Shanklin [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Alex, I had a gallon shipped to Windsor, and the shipping was the same as the cost of the SSII. But still worth it when you consider a the cost of a broken expensive side. Bob |
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| Author: | mike-p [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Colin North wrote: Mike, glad you were successful with the bending, must have felt good Certainly did, bent a stack of solid linings now too. |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: bending with super soft. |
Hesh wrote: Aluminum foil can be helpful while bending but not-so-much-so if bending Koa or Black Acacia which are well known to turn a bit green.... if in direct contact with metal (this includes bending slats) during the bending process. Mike Franks wrote: It's easy to remove the green or black stain that is common when bending koa and mahogany. The stain is from the ferrous metal oxidation of the slats. If koa and black acacia turn green during bending while wrapped in aluminum foil, the discoloration must be due to something other than ferrous metal oxidation, surely? |
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