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| X brace .. to cover or not to cover http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44755 |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Hi Anybody cover there x brace joint ? If so what did you use and did it look good Thanks in advance |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I think you mean the cap over the joint right? If so yeah I use spruce. I guess it looks fine but I don't really care what it looks like on the inside of the guitar. Looks better probably then an exposed joint I don't know but it's more then purely cosmetic, it offers a lot of strength to the joint. |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Yes that's the one one...how did you make it..got any photos? |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Lots of folks do this. It really helps reclaim the stiffness of the brace with the notch facing up. I just use a thin cap of spruce brace wood, maybe about an eighth (EDIT: that should be a sixteenth) of an inch thick (probably less). I glue it on before I carve the braces and it all gets blended in. |
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| Author: | WudWerkr [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Bryan Bear wrote: Lots of folks do this. It really helps reclaim the stiffness of the brace with the notch facing up. I just use a thin cap of spruce brace wood, maybe about an eighth of an inch thick (probably less). I glue it on before I carve the braces and it all gets blended in. Ditto ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Same here... Cap and carve . Ends up about 1/16" tall, an inch long, and tapers to zero |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I use a cloth patch like Martin. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I use a very thin spruce cap as well and as others have said it greatly stiffens the X intersection. As John has said Martin and others have used cloth patches over the X intersection. I've thought for years that there is more to the cloth patch than meets the eye (but I can't prove it at the moment...). More specifically the patch adds some stiffness but also permits some flex as well. I'm a little fond of the bellows as one model to employ when attempting to understand how a guitar top works - it pumps.... As such it seems to me that a little flexibility in this intersection that the cloth patch gets us may be a desirable thing. It most certainly works well for Martin, John and many others. In any event cover the X intersection with either a patch (linen with HHG or Titebond Original soaked into it and through it also each for "side tapes" on the forum, it's a related topic) or a wooden cap feathered into one of the X legs (the one who's top is not continuous...  ).I looked for a pic of one of my caps showing the grain orientation matching the X-leg that it's attached too and all I could find was a bracing pic that I blew up a bit. Sorry for the fuzziness but you can get the basic idea. |
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| Author: | mhammond [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I always use a little scrap of Brazilian, just for good luck! |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I, like John, use the cloth patch. Effective, simple. Tricky to install, but once you get the idea, goes pretty quick |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Thanks..cant use a cap really as its a kit and the braces are pre rounded at the top... i like the idea of cloth patch.. Any ideas what material to use ? |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I also use a cloth patch. Gibson and Martin have been using them for years so that is what I have done. I use the round cloth patches that are used for cleaning guns. I brush the joint with Titebond and saturate the patch and apply it. I use one of those metal handle acid brushes and push the patch tight up into the joint in all 4 corners and make sure there are no air gaps. When I have it in place where I want it I then apply another coat of glue on to be sure it stays put. Gun cleaning patches come in different sizes but the ones I use for my 9mm seem to be just the right size. Cheers, Bob |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Yesterday I was looking in the 1870's Martin and noticing the patch. It's the same material, linen, that we see used for side tapes in vintage instruments as well. One of the most frequent answers to questions such as why did they do that or why did they use this is because it's what they had. This seems to ring true more so with Vintage Gibson than anyone else but I see it as well in vintage Martins. Back then, 1870's nitro lacquer was not around so most instruments were finished in french polished shellac. Looking at the patch and knowing as I do how to do french polish the X-intersection material looks suitable as well for french polish. I can't know.... but it would not surprise me if side tapes, X-intersection patch, and the wad that they used for FP were all the same material. Because it's what they had. Vintage instrument forensics is pretty fascinating. |
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| Author: | Dave Rickard [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I don't think having pre-shaped braces will keep you from using a cap. My first was a kit from Martin and I was able to put a cap on the x brace. If I can do it anyone can! So far I've used a cap but after reading Hesh's 2nd reply I'm starting to question if a patch would be better. Hesh says they used used a patch because thats what they had. But they also had small scraps of spruce that would be suitable for a cap. If you consider the box to be a bellows wouldn't the patch offer more flex? I don't mean to high jack this thread sorry if I have. Looks like I have more research to do! |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I asked Kent Everett about covering the X brace and he said no because it would reduce the flexibility of the joint too much. I wanted to edit this because the above was what I remembered and I don't want to misrepresent Kent. He may use a patch, I don't remember. He sure makes good guitars though so I have no problem following his lead. |
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| Author: | Nils [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I have done it, but as of recent, I've just made that whole area taller, and have a peak right where the X crosses. The idea is that its thicker, which adds some strength, at the joint. Something else I also do, to ensure I dont actually create a weak spot by doing this, is I make the notches uneven (the place that gets glued together), so that there is as much uncut grain going along the length of the braces as possible....to describe this differently if that was confusing, the glue joint inside the x is about 1/4 the way down from the gluing side of the legs, as opposed to half the way down. 
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| Author: | Tom West [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Capping is the way to go and think it is one of the smartest advances that has been made away from the so called traditional methods. I'm not trying to put down tradition for it's own sake and use many of the older ways in my own building. But the old ways must be examined and judged. Doing something just because it's the way it's always been done is not always the best answer. Capping is one of the relatively new methods that far outshines the older. Tom |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I use a scrap piece of spruce, but I make it really thin... not sure that the thin strip of wood is any more restrictive than a cloth patch soaked in glue... |
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| Author: | ScooberJake [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Dave Rickard wrote: If you consider the box to be a bellows wouldn't the patch offer more flex? Perhaps, but I think that part of the top doesn't have to flex very much. The bellows analogy is a decent one, but a piston is probably better. The middle portion of the top probably remains relatively un-deformed as the top pumps up and down at those low frequency modes. The edges have to deform a lot to swing that middle portion back and forth. A cap probably adds more weight than a patch. But, since the cap is also stiffer, your bracing could probably be shorter than with a patch. I would expect in terms of strength per unit weight, the cap ought to be better. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
I think this discussion is splitting hairs a bit. Can't imagine that a small cap or patch makes any measurable difference in flex. If the X-joint is flexing then that would mean the joint is broken which would not be good at all. Actually this is one of the stiffest areas of the top due to the large amount of brace wood in this area and the nearby bridge and bridge plate. I think the benefit of the cap is preventing the joint from cracking which can only happen if it is over stressed or someone sits on the guitar. As Jake said, the flexibility of the edges is where the action is at. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
The cloth patch can be surprisingly strong. Several years ago one of my students brought in his Taylor. The top was sinking in front of the bridge, and when we looked in the X brace was split along the line of the box joint, with the split running down away from the top. It was fairly easy to glue it closed with Titebond and a post inside, but that would have been unlikely to hold without reinforcement. The braces were pre-carved to a peak, so there was no area for a spruce patch, which left us with a cloth one. I cut a circle of linen a bit over an inch in diameter, iirc, and soaked it in HHG, working it in well. This made it pliable enough to form over the joint and down the sides of the braces a bit. Of course, you have to work fast with the hide glue, but it's easy to reach the brace intersection. Once that had dried we pulled it up to tension and it was fine. So far as I know it's still OK. I don't think the cloth patch is any more flexible than a wood one, but it could be, I suppose. It would be an interesting thing to check out some time. |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
If you are going to use a wood cap, and I do, make it longer than 1". I want to have at least 1" lap on each side of the joint so 2 1/4" total or longer Short patches don't have enough glue area to be reliable |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Mine look almost exactly like Hesh's--except Hesh's example is a lot cleaner than mine. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Cablepuller wrote: Thanks..cant use a cap really as its a kit and the braces are pre rounded at the top... i like the idea of cloth patch.. Any ideas what material to use ? Piece of cotton cloth, like from a T-Shirt, or one of those patches used in gun cleaning kits. Lowes sells cotton rags made from left over T-Shirt material. I always have those around. Walmart sells those patches. Here is my technique. I use two modelers paint brushes. I put thinned titebond on the X joint and lay a circle patch (presized) on it. Then I paint thinned glue on it till it is soaked. Next, I use the non-business ends of the paint brushes to tuck the patch into the X (opposing sides). Eventually, it will settle into place. Then I paint on regular thickness titebond until fully coated. I will have to occasionally re-tuck the patch. Once it is done, leave it alone till it is dry. Trying to soak it in glue, then apply it will normally end in failure unless you have Teflon fingers. |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: X brace .. to cover or not to cover |
Thanks mike good advice.. do you get alot of glue run onto the braces? |
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