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| string height at the nut http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44675 |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | string height at the nut |
I find getting the string height at the nut kinda challenging. What are your thoughts about these measuring devises? Worthwhile? Which one? Are there other preferred methods of adjusting the string height at the nut? I got some good feedback on the fretboard extension thread… |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I don't think either are good for nut slots. I have the first one. It's great for 12th fret measurements but not very useful for nut slots. I think most good setups are done by fretting the 3rd. From there, a good eyeball and lots of practice and spare nuts. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I use the StewMac gauge all the time. I can get my accuracy within .002" with it. You can still do the "fret at the third and tap it down to the first" technique. The gauge will tell you the difference between the fretted and unfretted string. |
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| Author: | ZekeM [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I always found the "file till you hit the feeler gauge" technique to be pretty accurate and fairly painless. Makes nut slotting easy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I use the Stew Mac gauge (that looks like a credit card) but I don't use it to actually measure the hight. What I do is put it on edge in the nut slot along the string path. I make sure it is resting in the slot and on the 3rd fret. Then I slide it out of the nut slot and feel for the drop. I want to hear just a slight "click" as it drops out of the slot. I have done it enough to know when it is right where I want it. I use to use the same method and slip a feeler gauge in the gap but I can get them pretty accurate now just by listening to the click and I don't have to piss around with feeler gauges trying to measure. I also make the bass strings a bit higher than the treble strings to accommodate for the larger vibrations of the strings so using a feeler gauge across all the strings does not work for how I set my nuts up. I am sure someone will say that is a bad way to do it but that is what I do and it works well for me and my clients seem to love how I do setups. Cheers, Bob |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
RusRob wrote: I also make the bass strings a bit higher than the treble strings to accommodate for the larger vibrations of the strings I take care of that by making the saddle higher on the bass side. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
The Stew Mac gauge will work just fine, I have one that I've used for nut setup but I normally use the gauge for other measurements now. I know there are several ways to do it. I usually just fret on the bridge side of the second fret and hit the string with my fingertip over the first fret. When the clearance is right it will make a "tink" sound - only takes a little practice. |
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| Author: | Ben-Had [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I use the Stew-Mac gauge Steve. |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
murrmac wrote: RusRob wrote: I also make the bass strings a bit higher than the treble strings to accommodate for the larger vibrations of the strings I take care of that by making the saddle higher on the bass side. Yea, I do that also, it is just something I learned to do a long time ago and have done it ever since. I think it helps keep open chords from buzzing up by the nut if someone is a heavy strummer. Bob |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I use the SM dial gauge and love it! I position it over the first fret. Then I hold the string down that I am measuring at the third fret and at the first fret. With the string touching the first fret I have my "zero" point. Then by releasing the string at the first fret, while still holding it at the third I get a measurement for the gap between the string and the first fret. I know what I want that gap to be for each string and can then set my height accordingly. All my guitars leave the shop with the same nut slot depth. I find this way easier than using feeler gauges or other methods I've tried. But as with everything in guitar building there is more than one way to tackle the issue. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
As much as I love a lot of brilliant tools from StewMac, I see the gauge as relatively worthless for setting nut slot height - it introduces all sorts of irrelevant variables. String pressed down past the second, clearance and movement observed over the first, and lots and lots of practice. With experience, no other method can come close to matching the tolerances achievable by this method. |
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| Author: | uvh sam [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I have never understood how the clearance behind the fretted note made any difference. Dave, could you explain plz? I have used feeler gauges, the stew mac tool, and now I do it by feel only. The specs on feel are a little hazy though |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
David Collins wrote: String pressed down past the second, clearance and movement observed over the first, and lots and lots of practice. With experience, no other method can come close to matching the tolerances achievable by this method. Yup. |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I rest a feeler gauge leaf in the nut slot and against the second fret and check the clearance between the feeler gauge and first fret. I reckon any thin material with a straight edge would work. I like a nearly zero-fret nut slot height but I leave the first two strings a tad higher. I am a hobby builder, so I don't have time restraints and this works well for me. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
This is highly unscientific, but you've got all the measuring tools you will ever need, attached to your hands. First: Bar below the third fret. Second: Touch the string between the third fret and the nut. Third: Eyeball the amount of deflection it takes to make the string touch the first fret. Fourth: File as needed. Fifth: When the string is proud of the first fret, but you can make the string touch the first fret simply by touching it, there you have your perfect nut slot. Move onto the next slot and repeat the process. Repeat again, one by one, until you have filed all six slots. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
The specs are hazy indeed, because it's hard to quantify and communicate sighted measurements, but I do find them more precise and repeatable in the end (I find mechanical gauges both difficult to reference here with repeatable precision, or to apply without undue interference). Best way I've been able to describe what I'm looking for is this. Start with your frets perfectly - and I mean perfectly - leveled. Now touch the string down very lightly behind the first fret with one hand, and beyond the third with the middle or ring finger of the other, just enough to barely stay in contact with the frets. Now with your free index on one hand, tap the string per the 2nd fret in the middle. With light pressure beyond the outer frets, the string will arc up barely one or two tenths of a thousandth over the middle fret. You can probably hear the tiny plink as you tap, but if you want to see it your eye has to be positioned just right related to the neck, with just the right lighting. When you can see it, you've found the ideal viewing position. Now that clearance with super light pressure is too low for most, but it's a good exercise in calibrating your eyes and viewing methods. It's also a good method for checking individual high/low frets. Repeat this up and down a neck that may seem to have level frets, and you'll likely find at least a few where there is no "plink" with super light pressure, or a bit more on some than others. With fresh strings I find this can reveal far smaller discrepancies than you will typically be able to find with a straightedge. But I digress. Now repeat the same test spanning 3 level frets with a bit more pressure, from typical playing pressure to perhaps a bit heavier. Now tap over the middle fret and you'll see and hear a much more notable movement and "plink". On thin (less stiff) strings this will typically deliver a clearance of .0005" to .001". With stiffer bass strings the arc will be greater, as much as .002"-.003" clearance. By playing around with 3-fret span exercise for a while, you can see pretty quickly how small of a change can be readily and reliably visible to the eye. Now for cutting the nut, I typically aim for the equivalent clearance as seen in the moderate to heavy pressure 3-fret span reference. This means using moderate pressure when gauging, and increasing clearance accordingly toward the bass strings. It also means making sure the strings are broken in at the nut and pressed down firmly before starting, as new strings can leave the nut with an artificially high arc when new which will eventually bend down and result in slots too low if you're not careful. The idea I work by is that there is little reason the for the open string to have any more clearance over the first fret, as a fretted string would have over the fret following it. This method aims to mimic height of a string being pressed down behind a fret where the nut lies. I see no reason to bring saddle height as a factor in leveling the frets, nor height above the fretboard, so why include these peripheral variables in the nut height? Of course there's a learning curve and a lot of other small details. Shape and arc of the slot are critical, as if it brakes over from the face too steeply and does not provide enough back support it will wear quickly, and potentially go from ideal to low in short time. Depending on the instrument and player style I may leave the bass strings a bit higher, simply because the player demands more of hitting the low strings open than they may on the upper strings. In the end though, I feel I can achieve much tighter and more consistent tolerances by leaving numbers behind, and am able to gauge smaller increments with practiced viewing methods than with tools typically available. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
As to the original post - sdsollod wrote: I find getting the string height at the nut kinda challenging. That's because it is. In fact I would argue that mastering nut slots is the single most difficult and complicated aspect of setup on a guitar. Getting to the 80% mark isn't that hard with a bit of practice and aptitude. The last 20% can take years, even for the best. There is no other aspect of setup though, where such a small change can bring such notable impact. Tools like this gauge can help bring you to the 80% mark real quick, and certainly has its usefulness here. Used regularly as a primary reference though, and I feel it can easily become a crutch which prevents one from really learning how to refine their skills to deliver beyond what the tool is reasonably capable of. |
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| Author: | Joe Sallis [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I use the fret at 3rd and listen for the string slapping onto the 1st method described above. I have found that when the string is tightened to pitch the string can sink deeper into the slot, especially true of bass strings. I usually leave the slot slightly higher until I've tightened and loosened the string a few times and I'm sure that the string is snug at the bottom of the slot. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I use the string on 2nd fret looks like a solution searching for a problem |
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| Author: | Haans [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
Same here, and don't measure it. Eyeballed it for years and able get it very low. |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
This thread has been very helpful. I'll try to refine my technique and forgo the gauge for the time being. I don't need to find something else to spend money on right know anyway... |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
I don't have this tool, and use the 3rd fret method mentioned, seems to work fine for me too. David Collins wrote: Shape and arc of the slot are critical, as if it brakes over from the face too steeply and does not provide enough back support it will wear quickly, and potentially go from ideal to low in short time. This is important, and can be hard to get just right. In addition, the highest point in the nut slot should be at the edge where the string exits towards the fingerboard for best intonation, also to avoid buzzes and all sorts or trouble. I also try to make the other exit, towards the tuner, curved ever so slightly along the natural sting path between the tuner post and nut slot, sort of flared out like a trumpet I guess. The goal to give the string enough support to withstand wear, and smooth transitions to slide freely. Almost every factory guitar that I get on my bench needs some nut work, I guess because every instrument is different, and it takes too much time to do in a big factory production setting. Besides, not every player or playing style likes the same set up. |
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| Author: | Ben-Had [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
David Collins wrote: The idea I work by is that there is little reason the for the open string to have any more clearance over the first fret, as a fretted string would have over the fret following it. This method aims to mimic height of a string being pressed down behind a fret where the nut lies. I see no reason to bring saddle height as a factor in leveling the frets, nor height above the fretboard, so why include these peripheral variables in the nut height? I agree. That's why I capo the 1st fret, measure the distance on my gauge, then cut the slot to that height as measured by my gauge. Maybe your eyes are better than mine, I trust the gauge more than my eyesight:) |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
That's very logical Tim. |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: string height at the nut |
Quote: I have never understood how the clearance behind the fretted note made any difference. The reasoning is simple. The correct nut height is the same as the frets. The pressed-down string acts as a straightedge. I also use a thin straightedge place in the slot and resting on the second fret. The goal is to have minimal clearance over the first fret. If you accept that the nut height should be the same as the frets, then you never need to measure the first fret action, which is dependent on the 12th fret action. In fact, with the correct nut height, the first fret action will always be around 12% of the 12th fret action. |
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