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| Giving your work away... http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44598 |
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| Author: | nkforster [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Giving your work away... |
Have any of you been tempted to give your work away in the hope it will lead to gain in the future? That's what I asked some of the top makers. The answers are in the last two posts over at TLB. http://www.theluthierblog.com/articles/ ... tars-away/ http://www.theluthierblog.com/articles/ ... tars-pt-2/ What's been your experience? |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I've given good deals before but not just give away. Well.. I did give my two nephew's a guitar but that of course was a gift and it's very pleasing to know that they still play them. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I think this might be the biggest misconception in out industry. "If I give my guitars to X it will bring me lots of business." First, if X likes one of your guitars well enough to play it on stage, he/she should be paying for it. If he/she doesn't feel the need to pay for it, he/she will likely not play it on stage and you've given away a guitar for zero publicity. I know there are more than one player that tour the shows (Montreal, Healdsburg, Newport, etc) seeking someone to give them a guitar. I know a guy that fell for that, "you'll get great exposure" line. He gave a guitar to the fellow and never heard from him again. Sad thing is that since this player is known to have never paid for a guitar, nobody took the builder seriously when he mentioned that fact. "X is playing one of my guitars!" , yes, but only because you gave it to him. I would highly, highly advise you to never give away a guitar. Unless you are doing so out of the kindness of your heart, the act will never pay off for you. If you honestly feel that your guitars are good enough for big names to be playing them, then big names should be paying for them. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I saw it every year at IBMA. The hotshots would come around and tell you all the great things they could do for you. I'd see some "up and coming's" fall for it, and 6 months down the line, their mandolins would be up for sale for a quick profit. "Deadhead F5 Mandolin played by Icky Raggs"...$8,000. Meanwhile all the big companies were running around saying, "You should be playing a Fibson or Kowlings". Just sign this 10 year endorsement and we'll give you this Sam Shrub. While some players I knew privately admitted they were given instruments, the companies would lie through their teeth claiming they never did anything like that! They would just pass the cost on down to the "fanboys". I never gave anything away. "The music business is a dark, plastic hallway...where pimps and thieves run free, and good men die like dogs. There is also a negative side..." Hunter S. Thompson. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
The first thing the owner of The Podium in Minneapolis told me when I started selling there nine years ago was to never give your guitars away in hopes of stimulating sales. It was good advice which I didn't totally follow but it was the right advice. Don't do it. Maybe a small professional discount for the right person but that's it for me. I'm guessing Jim O's relationship with JT had as much to do with the kind of person Jim is as it did his guitars. My hard way lesson was building a one off 17" resonator cutaway spec'd out with the most expensive electronics for a professional that asked if he could take it to Ireland where he was opening for Kenny Rogers in Dublin. Said he'd pay me when he got back. My ego got the best of me and I agreed. Guess what? Eight months later all I had was a video of him on stage with it in Ireland. I had to repo it and it was too unique to sell. It sat around several years and is currently being transformed into an electric archtop. |
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| Author: | peter.coombe [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Don't do it. It never results in increased sales and devalues your work. If a musician values your work less than his own then they are better off without your instrument. One exception - close family members. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I'm an old contracts guy and rule one of doing business is to never give anything up without receiving something in return... That's the biz side of the perspective from me but on the personal side I did give three guitars away but without any expectation of promotion, future sales, references, etc. Instead I gave one to an underprivileged young lady who was a bit of a prodigy and music student with not much of a home life that could afford for her to have a great guitar. I went through the school system here telling them what I wanted to do and they provided me with a few candidates for the gift. I selected one, wish I could have given them all nice guitars but this young lady got the guitar, did great with it, it helped her get a scholarship to university, and every Holiday season I receive a nice card, note, and pic to "Uncle Hesh..." Priceless. The other two were given to friends and fellow guitar enthusiasts but this time I did have an expectation of them in exchange for the gift. What I asked for was data... I was a new builder and I wanted to see how my stuff held up over time and with lots of use. So my request to the two that I gave these guitars to was perhaps once a year email me and let me know if the bridge is still on... if anything cracked, you know, what was happening with the instruments so that I might learn and improve. In this batch one of the recipients was happy to stay in touch and many of you will remember Serge from the early days of the OLF and just how happy he was to have the gift that was presented at Uncle Bob C.'s place in Ft. Erie. Good times. The other recipient did not keep me informed so live and learn... Two out of three gifted guitars ain't bad... Back to biz.... We all have to be absolutely nuts because it's been said before that if you are going into business be sure to pick something with a huge market because at best you will only receive a small corner of this market. So for those of us who sell guitars we picked a market that often it's the case that our prospects gig by night and sell patio furniture out on route 35 for peanuts by day... Or in other words musicians often are not the most flush sorts on the planet... My suggestion would be to do what ever you wish, that's always my suggestion by the way, but... be sure to make a deal that if the very next day the recipient of the instrument disappears forever without a peep and the guitar is who knows where you will still be able to sleep at night. There is also an argument that folks tend to not value things as much if they come too easy and/or if we are keen to devalue our value proposition at the drop of a hat how would we expect others to appreciate the value that we provide and the price that we wish to receive? This question comes up a lot on guitar building forums and there is a crowd that sees newer builders as ripe for the pickings for promises of future promotion that just may never happen. Or, another one of my favorites... a newer builder gets contacted with lots of praise for our pics that we posted on-line of our creations and then they attempt to commission an instrument. Problem is that what they want is a 9 string, triple neck uke/12 string/9 string and they want the neck inlaid with something utterly offensive to anyone else and they want it painted in the national colors of some banana republic. Danger Will Robinson there is a reason why these folks contact the less experienced builders and it likely may have something to do with being turned down previously by a better known builder or not having any money or wanting something for nothing or, or, or.... I'm OK discounting for a gigging musician who I want to have one of mine and I have done this. But the promises that I receive that in my case have all been sincere by the way go in one ear and out the other. I purposely have no expectations other than the price that we both agree that they will pay for the instrument. As such I have not been let down by any of my clients ever.... yet. Which brings up another subject and that is what the terms should be with building a one-off that cannot ever be sold to someone else because someone may want his sister's name inlaid in pink shell on the fret board. Reminds me of the three rules of being an attorney which are: Get the money up front and get the money up front and get the money up front.... No offense to attorneys and it may be that when selling custom made guitars they have it all figured out... |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
nkforster wrote: Have any of you been tempted to give your work away in the hope it will lead to gain in the future? That's what I asked some of the top makers. I know that your former boss and mentor, Stefan Sobell, never gave a discount of any description, far less a free instrument. Leastways Martin Simpson told me once that he had to pay full price for his Sobells, and if Martin didn't get a discount ... I don't reckon that anybody else did. I am not privy as to whether his current arrangement with PRS is quite as cut and dried ... I rather suspect not ... |
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| Author: | John How [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I agree with Paul Woolson. I have given guitars away to friends early in my career and those people are stuck with them. I have made great deals to friends early as well. It takes a number of tries to make a great guitar and my closets were filling with them. I gave away one of my favorite guitars ever to a player that I really liked who had already bought one of my guitars. I gave it to him and he was completely surprised and has used the guitar to record and make videos so I have been able to enjoy that on several occasions. Just lately I am moving towards retirement and had to clean out those closets full of early guitars. I gave them to a worthy organization "Guitars For Vets" which I encourage you to do if you have extras or playable guitars that you think might not measure up selling. I have had some well known players on the guitar show circuit ask for guitars that they would not pay for and I said no thanks. They were not struggling in their career any more than I was so no thanks. |
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| Author: | Peebs [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I gave one of my early guitars to the local high school art program to raffle for a fundraiser. I feel good about what I did, and I expect to see no personal gain, other than the satisfaction of helping to save the art program. Funny though I instantly got a call asking for a guitar for another charity. People always have their hand out. I explained that I had built the guitar for myself years ago, and that I rarely played it, so I put it to good use. Will I build a guitar to give away? Nope. |
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| Author: | phil [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Another great question Nik. Nice to hear about JT paying for his Olson, and Jackson Brown insisting he pay for his Ryan. In addition to the wide distaste for giving instruments away, I'll also register my distaste for seeing a glossy endorsement on one page of a magazine only to flip a few pagers further and see a picture of the same player on stage with a different brand guitar. It happens all the time, and has a way of making the endorsement ring completely hollow. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Keith Urban won't be asking for a free one anymore. He'll be playing one of his own. http://www.hsn.com/shop/urban-guitar-collection/11385 |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Terence Kennedy wrote: Keith Urban won't be asking for a free one anymore. He'll be playing one of his own. http://www.hsn.com/shop/urban-guitar-collection/11385 The guitar gets second billing, after the guitar case!  Alex |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I think if a performer asked me to give him a guitar with the promise of increasing my sales through his promotion I would more than likely pass. However............ there are times when sharing the love is a good thing. One of my friends was just in town to play a gig and staying with us. After the show we were back at my house. I had a few guitars on hand that were about to go up for sale so we were playing a few tunes on them and having some fun. This fellow is a very solid guitar player but I've rarely seen him using a guitar to perform with. At his show that night he did use a guitar in a couple of tunes and what he was playing on was a little on the harsh side. During the evenings conversation I mentioned that he could possibly use a little nicer guitar. I think I even said "too bad you don't play a little more guitar. I might even consider giving you one." I knew that, like most musicians, finances were usually tight. Well, he's doing a new CD in December. Sinking everything he can manage into it and it turns out he's doing 5 guitar tunes on the album. I guess I pretty much stepped into it so took one of the guitars off the wall and gave it to him. The most expensive thing on this guitar are the Gotoh tuners. Local free Maple back, sides and neck and a very nice $30 Ebay Bearclaw Sitka top. It was a very nice guitar. All I had into it was time, and for me to be able to give some of what I've got to get back some of what he's got is a great deal all around. I am looking forward to hearing one of my guitars on a well engineered cd, but otherwise, I feel pretty fortunate to be able to do what I do so sharing it with someone who's music I really enjoy works well for me. He left my house pretty darn happy and the more I think about it the more I realise what's important in life. It's not so much about money. After all, it's just a guitar. We'll make more right! 
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
No way, not even a discount. The price you sell for will influence the perceived quality of your instrument, so if you sell one with a discount or give one away, you lose more than money (cheap guitar=poor quality). If you are realistic in your pricing, the people you want to do business with will pay what you ask, and they will handle and value the instrument accordingly. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Terence Kennedy wrote: Keith Urban won't be asking for a free one anymore. He'll be playing one of his own. http://www.hsn.com/shop/urban-guitar-collection/11385 Terry, you are starting to scare me... 
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| Author: | uvh sam [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
I think if you like an artist enough that you want to give them a guitar as a gift, then it can be ok. Just don't expect a while lot from them and you will never be dissapointed |
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| Author: | Robbie_McD [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Some of us build for completely different reasons. For me, it is 100% therapy when away from a busy office job. Just something to keep the hands and mind active. Definitely not a commercial venture, and would never do repair work work on someone else's guitar. Hence, I give away all of my guitars (26 so far) My friends and relatives are well equipped, and occasionally get a free upgrade as my skills improve... |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Arnt Rian wrote: No way, not even a discount. The price you sell for will influence the perceived quality of your instrument, so if you sell one with a discount or give one away, you lose more than money (cheap guitar=poor quality). If you are realistic in your pricing, the people you want to do business with will pay what you ask, and they will handle and value the instrument accordingly. As is the case with almost any topic or subject matter nothing is set in stone. Early on in my guitar building journey I gave a good discount to a local player who is a phenomenal guitarist and also has at any given time up to 30 students. As a result of that relationship I've sold 5 guitars through him and also do repairs at his music store with no cut taken out. --- It seems to me that young budding guitarists are always interested in what their favorite band or players instruments are. If Tony Iommi plays an SG then I GOT to have one! That sort of thing. I don't have any data on it of course but I'm not sure why anyone would think that it would not be beneficial to have a hot musician playing one of your instruments. Think of it as your advertising budget. I would not be giving them away but still I think people are genuinely interested. I know Henderson didn't give Clapton his guitar for example but I'm pretty sure that, and the book that followed of course, set the stage for him to have a lucrative career in the business. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Most of these big time players have their endorsements sewn up anyway. The Corporations make sure they have the top guys on board these days. THEY have advertising budgets...most hand builders don't. Bottom line is if you can give a break to a player and feel comfortable about doing it, go for it. If you can (as I did) make some kind of labor trade along with a "deal" that is up to you. I would never flat "give" an instrument away unless it was charitable. I have seen WAY too many folks get burned by endorsements. Festivals and trade shows are "cruising grounds" for some of these scoundrels, and don't forget the Corporations are doing everything they can to work against you. |
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| Author: | John How [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
jfmckenna wrote: I know Henderson didn't give Clapton his guitar for example but I'm pretty sure that, and the book that followed of course, set the stage for him to have a lucrative career in the business. I'm pretty sure that Henderson already had quite a career or at least a good backlog of orders going which is why it took several years and the prodding of the author just to get him to build the guitar. And though I am no expert, I don't recall seeing Clapton play any acoustic other than a Martin ever, and I have not even see any mention that Clapton ever personally got hands on the Henderson. |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Wayne Henderson - "Clapton who?" |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Not to mention you can mess with them and say things like" OK, you can have this guitar but you have to let me play on your next CD." 
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| Author: | mkellyvrod [ Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
Robbie_McD wrote: Some of us build for completely different reasons. For me, it is 100% therapy when away from a busy office job. Just something to keep the hands and mind active. Definitely not a commercial venture, and would never do repair work work on someone else's guitar. Hence, I give away all of my guitars (26 so far) My friends and relatives are well equipped, and occasionally get a free upgrade as my skills improve... I'm in Robbie's camp on this. Although I only just completed #8 (working on 9 and 10 now), the list I have of giveaways to immediate relatives and friends is probably 20 long right now. Of course, I'm not trying to make a living at this this, just trying to stay alive a little longer. I can see the logic in not giving away on a professional level except under some very special circumstance. I do think one would be under valuing ones work. Having said that I do have hopes of maybe doing some bartering at local art shows or some such sometime in the future. My main goal right now is to give myself the satisfaction of building something fairly unique and interesting, showing some appreciation to long-term friends and family, and trying out every piece of tonewood I can afford. So much wood and so little time. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Giving your work away... |
As has been stated, it depends on your motivation and goals for the giveaway. I build for my own pleasure and I don't want my hobby to become a job. If I were building professionally, I'd probably give instruments to friends and family members (especially youngsters who were interested in playing), but I wouldn't give an instrument to a professional--unless that pro was also a very good friend or a family member. My practical experience with this revolves around one of my other pursuits. I'm a semi-professional gallery artist, too. I used to do a painting each year for the local chapter of a wildlife conservation organization. They were auctioned at the annual fund raiser. I quit doing this because my originals began to sell for less and less money each year, thus devaluing the work I sold elsewhere. In addition, every other charity in town began to approach me for donations of original art work. At first, I felt good helping this organization and that's a good motivator for a charitable person. However, as I began to feel frustrated with the performance of my donations (and the requests from other groups), I found other ways to help the organization. |
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