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| Hide Glue Anomoly... http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44169 |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hide Glue Anomoly... |
I've come to expect a bottle of HHG to solidify in the bottle when it hits room temp. I've got a small batch that I mixed today that seems to be remaining liquefied, even though it's at room temp. It seemed normal enough during usage. Ant thoughts/similar experience? Maybe too much water or something? |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
my HHG turns into a gel at room temp what gram strength ? |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
How long has it been sitting out? Sometimes it stays liquid for a while even when the bottle feels cool to the touch. Give it another hour and see if it gels. Water content does affect how cool it has to get. |
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| Author: | Frank Ford [ Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
I expected my hide glue to gel nicely at room temp when I did my first demonstration at Roberto-Venn. Mixed up the glue at usual strength and told the class to take a look at it after an hour or so. When I started to pass it around for inspection, it was immediately obvious that it was still very runny. Then it dawned on me that while the room felt cool, it was a matter of my misperception. Sure, it was cool - by comparison to the outside which was about 110F at the time. So, unless your glue was seriously damaged by heat - say cooking for days, I suspect it may be a matter of mixing ratio, room temp, or other small thing that went unnoticed at the time. As an anecdote, I knew one fellow who found the secret of keeping it liquid at room temp for easy application. He heated it to 145F and kept it hot for a week, after which it stayed liquid at regular room temp. Unfortunately, the strength of the glue was so seriously compromised, glue joints failed completely sometimes. OK, so TWO anecdotes. . . |
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| Author: | timoM [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Of all the inexplicable things about HHG I know. About a thousand.  . Non gelling at room temp is usually caused by exposure to alcohol, not Oban either. Occasionally use of tap water I hear. If you don't need low temp reversibility or big gap filling glue apps HHG is quite inferior and should be avoided for quality woodworking and particularly luthier work.
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Hmmm... Well, I was only using it to glue a bridge on so strength shouldn't really be an issue. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Sadly, the nearesest Oban is locked in a cabinet in a store across the street. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
 Not doing anyone any good...
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| Author: | timoM [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Haha. I'm burning the midnight oil myself. An hour or so from a nice IRS. Cheers. |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
timoM wrote: If you don't need low temp reversibility or big gap filling glue apps HHG is quite inferior and should be avoided for quality woodworking and particularly luthier work. What would be a recommended replacement? I love an eccentric viewpoint, so hats off! But what is it? Staples? Deck screws? Resorcinol? I'm trying to think of an adhesive that releases at a higher heat than HHG, and is inferior in filling gaps. OK, I guess resorcinol. You're right--great glue. Top seams would be a little more obvious. Repair techniques would need to change. Titebond and its cousins, on the other hand, release at a much lower temp than HHG. (That may not be a bad thing. PVA's have a long, successful history in guitar building.) Epoxies excel at filling gaps. Some of them are heat resistant. They have some potential issues concerning long term durability. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
I thought y'all weren't too keen on the IRS? |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
timoM wrote: If you don't need low temp reversibility or big gap filling glue apps HHG is quite inferior and should be avoided for quality woodworking and particularly luthier work. Leaving aside the fact that I disagree with these statements (and I do), as well as the fact that they certainly are not in line with what I hear from some builders and repair people with serious reputations, I'm now curious as to what adhesive you think should be used for the main structural joints in a guitar. What do you use, and why? |
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| Author: | timoM [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Yes sir, eccentric I am. Build and believe as you will. Actually in practice Titebond will never release at a lower temp than HHG unless the joint is compromised and loose. The reason so many believe HHG is superior is they most likely have never made a proper joint and enjoy HHG's gap filling properties. If you can prove me wrong have at it but beware I am a pro with years of tests to support my opinion. I am currently negotiating the sale of my glue testing protocol. The guitar building world likes myths and legends the same as most human communities. Sadly the love of a myth does not make it a fact. As I said in the beginning. Build and believe as you choose. This is the last comment I will make on this topic. This is probably my last post on this forum. Happy building. Tim |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
timoM wrote: Yes sir, eccentric I am. Build and believe as you will. Actually in practice Titebond will never release at a lower temp than HHG unless the joint is compromised and loose. The reason so many believe HHG is superior is they most likely have never made a proper joint and enjoy HHG's gap filling properties. If you can prove me wrong have at it but beware I am a pro with years of tests to support my opinion. I am currently negotiating the sale of my glue testing protocol. The guitar building world likes myths and legends the same as most human communities. Sadly the love of a myth does not make it a fact. As I said in the beginning. Build and believe as you choose. This is the last comment I will make on this topic. This is probably my last post on this forum. Happy building. Tim Well, no need to leave with your knickers in a twist. I merely expressed polite disagreement with your perspective and asked a question. If I offended you, I apologize. I can't speak for anybody else, but gap filling is low on my list of why I use hot hide glue. I use hot hide glue because it dries hard, the joint won't creep (it will let go, rather than creep), it cleans up very easily, and whatever won't clean up easily simply fills the pores in a way that doesn't mess up the finish later. There are folks who think there are sonic benefits, but I think that is a very iffy proposition. Maybe, maybe not. But the rest of the benefits I like very much. |
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| Author: | Mark Fogleman [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
You can always test the suspect HHG on scraps of the material(s) you intend to use it on. If the glue line survives the expected strain/tension/torsion/etc. it's good. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
I switched to animal protein glues both fish and HHG exclusively. If you rely on a glue to fill gaps, your joinery is no good. Joint integrity is most important. HHG and fish will dry harder than Tite Bond , but no doubt that tite bond will do the job. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
I'll be making a new batch for sure. I only ever make a tablespoon or so. It's happened twice now... |
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| Author: | Lonnie J Barber [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
What has drinking alcohol got to do with your glue not gelling? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
timoM wrote: . Actually in practice Titebond will never release at a lower temp than HHG unless the joint is compromised and loose. The reason so many believe HHG is superior is they most likely have never made a proper joint and enjoy HHG's gap filling properties. This is probably my last post on this forum. Tim Tim-- I'd hate to see you leave. I know who the professional woodworkers are on this forum, and I make a point of reading their posts. I read yours. This forum includes a wild mix of backgrounds: many beginning guitar making hobbyists, a few very experienced woodworkers branching out into guitar making, some folks who have been doing this as a sideline for years, and some who pay the rent with guitar work. I built my first commissioned instrument for a professional musician in 1981. I didn't make it a full-time pay-the-rent job until 1997. At this point, I think I know how to make a close-fit glue joint. I have removed enough bridges, and fingerboards, and backs, bridge-plates and braces on guitars going back to 1845, to have strong opinions on the heat-sensitivity of various glues. Frank Ford has done some quantitative experiments on heat-sensitivity of glues. I haven't. When it comes to sound, I'm firmly in the camp of "The glue doesn't matter". I've played and repaired fantastic guitars built with a variety of glues. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. I hope you continue to contribute to the forum. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Wow, so the last 150 years of guitars built with HHG must have all fallen apart by now... Pity. |
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| Author: | weslewis [ Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
 Glue Fight!!! 
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Nope. But, the batch in question turned blackish overnight which was rather swift. Maybe I overheated it? Hopefully the bridges glued with it hold... |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Yikes! I've never seen hide glue change color. Can you think of anything the two spoiled batches have had in common? How long have you been using the same container of dry glue? It shouldn't ever go bad unless it's been exposed to moisture, but it could be a bad batch from the supplier if it's new. What kind of glue pot are you using, and have you mixed up a fresh batch and measured what temperature it gets to? |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide Glue Anomoly... |
Me. Couple years, it's sealed up tight in a dark place. It's not. Had it a while and it's worked as one would expect. Hence, anomaly. Just 'cause I'm from BC, that's no reason to assume I'm into pot! Oh, sorry, glue pot. It's a crockpot jr. Thing. Temp is 145 lid off, up to 167 lid on... |
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