Might I suggest NOT staining that guitar?! IMO it looks excellent as is. The tones of the woods you chose work together really well. I think you should leave it alone. Just sayin'...
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| Stain or spray color? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44103 |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Stain or spray color? |
I need some advice from those of you with more experience. On this walnut/sitka 000 I want to color the butt splice and other appointments with a red mahogany dye and the walnut back and sides a darker walnut. I don't want to put anything on the mad rose binding. My first question is "What technique will give me the best results - staining or spraying the color in shellac?". I ask because I've stained acres of furniture and cabinets but I've never tried to stain a guitar. I have sprayed a fair amount pf colored shellac so am comfortable with that and like the control I get over the shading. I suspect the staining will give better results but I'm not sure how to go about it and not stain the parts I don't want stain on. I've tried mixing the dye (Transtint) in alcohol and staining some scrap but, as expected, it soaks into everything adjacent to the area I want to stain so my second question is "How do I stain selected areas?". Attachment: 13 fret 000 butt splice.jpg
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| Author: | Josh H [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
In your case staining the wood without getting colour bleed into other parts of the guitar will be difficult. I am not an expert when it comes to colour work, but I always start with a coat of shellac. Than I spray a thinned down toner that has the colour mixed in. Spray another coat of shellac over the colour to protect it. Then carry on with the clear coats. I find I have to be very careful sanding the clear top coats until I get a good base built up. In your case spraying the colour would allow you to mask off the different parts of the guitar. I'm not sure how you would do it otherwise. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Thanks Josh, I didn't know if anyone had a method for precise application of stains - guess not. I'll stick with the spray. In the past I've used a 50/50 mixture of shellac/alcohol with the dye as a toner over one or two seal coats of shellac. If anyone has any more thoughts I'd love to hear them. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
If I'm colouring lacquer I use a mixture of 3 parts thinner to 1 part lac. I believe I got that formula from one of the StewMac finishing books. If I'm using shellac I usually use a 1 lb cut or lighter. I tend to mix the stain light and then spray a few coats until I get to the colour I'm after. I find this method more forgiving, but it still keeps the colour layer fairly thin. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
That sounds pretty close to what I've done with the shellac before so I'll do that. Thanks for the help. |
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| Author: | sdsollod [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
I have mixed Transtint directly into em6000 and sprayed over a couple clear coats. ...but yours is looking nice without stain... |
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| Author: | Heath Blair [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Might I suggest NOT staining that guitar?! IMO it looks excellent as is. The tones of the woods you chose work together really well. I think you should leave it alone. Just sayin'...
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| Author: | Haans [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
I have done a lot of dying of instruments and I agree with Heath. If you must, you will achieve the best results from dying the wood directly, but you must seal the parts you don't want dyed with enough coats of finish to make sure there is no bleeding. As you have left no separation lines for the binding, sealing would be very time consuming. |
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| Author: | dnf777 [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Any reason not to have applied the stain to the endpiece before gluing it in place? I suppose the trim and binding would still be a problem though. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Steve, Heath, and Hanns - I wasn't sure that there was enough contrast between the end graft (also on headplate, heel cap and rosette) and back/sides. Also, the walnut seemed to have a bit of a greenish tint in some areas. I will rethink my finishing plan and spray a coat or two of shellac on it to get an idea what it's going to look like before I make a decision. David - not sure staining before install would work since the end graft has to be leveled with the sides and some or all of the color would probably be scraped off. |
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| Author: | Nils [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
This one time I had a mahogany b/s with rosewood binding. There was also no purfling to hide bleed. I wanted the mahogany a tad darker. I masked and applied the dye. It worked fine. I didnt have any problems with bleed at all. Thats not to say it didnt, but since I didnt change the shade of the wood too much, it was fine. However, if youre really planning on changing the colors, you might have a hard time with just masking. You could also attempt to dye the wood in the pore filling stage. I pore fill with epoxy, and I havent tried it, but I've heard you can tint epoxy and get pretty good results. I might be tempted to mask and then pore fill. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Nils, That's good to know because if I go ahead with the dye I'm also only wanting to shade the colors a bit darker. What did you mix the dye with? |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Steve, This is a particularly interesting topic in my opinion. I know you will consider all advice and then experiment, too. As you progress through your process, will you please post some photos? I am very interested in seeing how you solve this problem. It's already a beautiful job. Best of luck as you move forward. Patrick |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Steve, After re-reading your original post, I'll offer this thought: The walnut in your guitar is no different than the walnut in your furniture, but perhaps you have different pieces in closer proximity on this project. I would use artist's oil colors (not dyes) mixed with oil based pore filler and I would mix my filler to a thicker-than-normal consistency. Where I normally mix to the approximate consistency of mayonnaise, I'd go for a heavy molasses thickness in this case. I'd mask off the sides and binding and carefully rub my warm toned filler into the end graft. If a little bit of bleed went under my tape, I would not freak out. I'd just scrape most of it away later. After a few days of drying, I'd carefully sand off or buff off any surface residue with 0000 steel wool. Then I'd paint or spray the stained area with shellac. Then I'd attack the sides and back with my darker filler. I'd tone this with just a bit of my red, too--for color harmony and to further hide any tiny bleed areas. After thorough drying and removal of surface residue, I'd shoot shellac overall on the sides and back. Then I'd sand the shellac back and begin shooting clear coats of finish. I know this is an unconventional method. It was taught to me by my father 50 years ago and it works for me as it did for him. I could show you how to do it, but I don't know how to exactly describe it in words. You must do some experimenting on scraps. Cadmium red light, mixed with a bit of dark brown, is a dynamite warm red tone for walnut. Dark brown, mixed with a bit of cad red, is a dynamite dark tone for walnut. Artist's colors are ground extremely fine and they are powerful. A little bit goes a long way. But they will not tend to run into the grain and soak into the wood. They'll tend to stay with the filler--in the pores and a bit on the surface. It can be done. Here's a banjo rim with the walnut cap filled and stained as I have just described, but with the bird's eye maple dyed. You can see that neither color ruined the adjacent color. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
cphanna, thank you for the explanation. I will build some test boards and try out your method, it makes sense to me although I have never used artist's oil colors. BTW, that banjo is gorgeous! |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Steve, First of all, I'm glad you like my banjo. Thanks for the nice compliment. Secondly, I think it's important to glue up some test pieces very similar to the edges you will encounter on your project. Also, you should know that my banjo walnut was stained and filled with Benjamin Moore wood pore filler, with several drops of a commercial dark walnut oil stain, and then a smidgeon of cadmium red light artist's oil color from the art department of Hobby Lobby. I'm a painter of canvases, so I always have this stuff on hand. It is expensive (maybe in the range of $12-$15 for a small tube, but that will be a lifetime supply for you). My point in explaining the canned hardware store dark oil stain is to reassure you that you can control the consistency of your mixture if you practice a bit on scraps. Also, that oil stain from the hardware store is compatible with artist's oil colors. So, don't worry about thin, runny oil stain--you will be using it by drops...not by spoonfuls. You've finished lots of furniture, so you know it's rather like cooking--you mix a bit of this and a bit more of that until you have the "flavor" you want. It's the same with color. Have lots of scrap walnut sticks handy (a few wide ones, to evaluate color on a wide surface such as the guitar back). Remember to finish sand these scraps so they present a surface to the filler very similar to your instrument. The colors in your mix will look dramatically different when applied to the wood, as you already know. Just play around with them and see if they make you happy. Only then, apply your mix to your guitar. But you already knew that, too! A note on proportions for cad red oil color: Visualize how much toothpaste you apply to your toothbrush every morning. About 1/4 that amount should give you enough toner to warm up an entire guitar back and sides. So....go slowly, take notes of your mixtures and do lots of experimenting. Something that looks absolutely RED in your mixture will probably just be a nice, warm brown once applied to the wood. Play with it for a Saturday afternoon. Come back on Sunday and evaluate your results. When you are confident of your color scheme, GO FOR IT. One last thought, and you already know this, too: When going for your dark brown, remember that you can come back with successive applications of stain to make it darker, but you can't make it lighter, so "sneak up" on your dark brown color. Man, if you lived next door to me, I could show you this process and we could play with it until you were satisfied. It is so difficult to try to describe this to you on a forum! Best of luck, and keep me and all the rest of us posted. You won't offend me if you decide my method is not to your liking. It's not for everyone, but it works for me. If you come up with a better solution, we all want to hear about it. I can learn new tricks, and I love learning them! Patrick PS: Here's a photo I forgot that I had. It shows the mixture I put on my banjo's wooden arm rest, but it matches the walnut cap on the bottom of the rim. See where I pulled in a little red at a time? I left a lot of the red off to the side, out of the mix. But if I wanted a truly rich red brown, I'd have pulled more into the mix. Just play with it and determine your own results. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Cphanna, thanks very much for the additional information. This is a new method to me and very promising - I like the idea that I can wipe it on and control it too. I've used acrylics on carvings so am used to mixing color. On furniture I mostly used stain with no filler or sprayed dye (cherry). Previously on instruments I've sprayed dye mixed with shellac. I will gather up a few things today so I can try this and report back here when I have something to show. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Ok, so I tried the oil based filler with the artists colors. I really like the way it brings out the grain in the wood but it looks like I didn't put enough color in the filler and it came out too light. The walnut looked good, pretty much the same as my test pieces, but the mad rose binding and the neck don't look good at all. Now that I know what the result ended up looking like the signs were there from the beginning but unfortunately it wasn't real obvious to me till I had some nitro on it. My schedule so far: sand to 220 fill (Mohawk grain filler plus the artists color) spray 2 light coats 1# shellac scuff with 320 spray 1 coat vinyl sealer spray 5 coats nitro I think I just plain screwed up thinking the fill would look darker under finish. Correct me if I'm wrong but the color of the filler after it dries on the end of a stir stick is pretty much the color you get under finish. I guess I'll sand it all back to bare wood and try to refill the same way but am thinking that I need to mix the color a lot darker. If I let some of the filler dry shouldn't it be darker than the mad rose, for instance? Attachment: IMG_1556.JPG Attachment: IMG_1557.JPG Attachment: IMG_1558.JPG
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| Author: | Greg B [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Yeah, it is much better to err on the side of too dark with opaque filler. I suggest making it about as dark as the darkest streaks on that walnut, and slightly darker than the madrose. Add some burnt and/or raw umber and a little black. You must have some scraps of the wood you built with. Try first on scrap. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
I tried it on scrap and was happy with the results but had to mix up a much larger batch of filler for the whole guitar. Looks like I just didn't get enough color in the bigger batch. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Steve, I think I'm the one who lured you into this situation, so let me add some comments. Color, darkness, etc. are all subjective things. I like the color of your wood, but I understand that you want it darker. That's a pretty easy fix. Strip or sand back (there's no need to go all the way back to open pores) and adjust your colors until they please you. I think you have something else going on here, too: Some pores are not filled all the way. They are scattered over your instrument, but they are especially noticeable in your neck photo. There are a few possible explanations for this. First, you simply didn't get the filler rubbed down into the pores uniformly. Second, you might have pulled some filler out of the pores while wiping off the excess (this is very common and not your fault--two or three passes are often required). Third, you might have done a GREAT job of filling, but then your filler shrank over a period of a week or two. Fourth, you might have encountered a combination of the first three possibilities. Don't lose heart. After removing your finish, go back over your guitar with the color mixture that pleases you. Wipe off excess. After 24 hours, gently buff off any remaining residue with very fine sand paper or very fine steel wool. Clean everything up fastidiously and sit tight for a week. Then examine every square inch of your guitar under a strong, bright, raking light. If you still see recessed pores, come back with another application. If you only have a few problem areas, you can spot treat them without witness lines. Be patient and meticulous. It'll work. You'll be fine. Let us know how it goes. Best of luck! Patrick |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Got the guitar stripped today, I used 0000 steel wool and acetone. Worked good. I just need to do a once over with sandpaper and it will be ready for round 2. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep posting as I make progress. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
SteveSmith wrote: Got the guitar stripped today, I used 0000 steel wool and acetone. Worked good. I just need to do a once over with sandpaper and it will be ready for round 2. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep posting as I make progress. Ouch, thats a tough break buddy. Get a coat or two on it and bring it to the meeting next Sunday. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Did the light colored filler come out of the pores when you stripped? I bet it is still there, but it may have sunk a bit leaving you some room on top to get some proper colored filler in there. My rule of thumb is that any filler must be considerably darker than the wood to prevent this problem. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stain or spray color? |
Using the acetone and steel wool I was able to get most of the light colored filler out. Hopefully the rest will have sunk a bit. If there a few light bits when I'm done I won't worry about it. |
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