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Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
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Author:  dnf777 [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Hi all. I'm working on my first guitar (Stewmac 000 RW) and have a question about where to end the x-braces and others that extend to the sides. Carefully studying the blueprint, it shows then tapered to 0.100" ALL THE WAY TO THE EDGE OF THE SOUNDBOARD, which would mean I must chisel/file an angle cut not only into the kerfing, but also into the side itself. This doesn't sound kosher, and I can't see where the braces end on any of my other guitars without removing the top. Do I end the brace within the kerf, abut the actual sidewood, or wedge it into the side? (I have several violins under my belt, but never had to deal with x-bracing!!)

thanks,
Dave F
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
I like to end "tucked" brace ends about a mm away from the ribs. This allows for some seasonal movement (shrinkage) which in extreme cases can pop the bindings loose from the sides if the brace ends butt against them.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Generally I taper the upper x brace to about .20" and tuck into the lining only. On the lower x braces I stop just short of the lining and taper them to near 0. The only other braces I tuck are the upper face and transverse braces but only into the lining, never the sides.
Author:  DennisK [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Clay S. wrote:
I like to end "tucked" brace ends about a mm away from the ribs. This allows for some seasonal movement (shrinkage) which in extreme cases can pop the bindings loose from the sides if the brace ends butt against them.

Same here.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
dnf777 wrote:
Hi all. I'm working on my first guitar (Stewmac 000 RW) and have a question about where to end the x-braces and others that extend to the sides. Carefully studying the blueprint, it shows then tapered to 0.100" ALL THE WAY TO THE EDGE OF THE SOUNDBOARD, which would mean I must chisel/file an angle cut not only into the kerfing, but also into the side itself. This doesn't sound kosher, and I can't see where the braces end on any of my other guitars without removing the top. Do I end the brace within the kerf, abut the actual sidewood, or wedge it into the side? (I have several violins under my belt, but never had to deal with x-bracing!!)

thanks,
Dave F


That is correct. Notch the kerfed lining and the side. Called "tucking" the brace.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
BTW, I think another reason for not tucking is because it is hard to do correctly. And I have far from mastered the technique. But most of the high end guitars I have looked at use this technique. My approach is to do this on a go-bar deck, get things as lined up as I can, make some alignment marks with a pencil, then place pieces of carbon paper under each brace and side (to mark area to remove) then use several go-bars to apply lots of steady pressure. If there is a better approach, I want to know, because mine is difficult at best.

An advantage of tucking is when you are done, the back is "keyed" to the ribs, so very little fuss during glue-up.

As far as going to the edges, it really does not matter as you will remove most if not all when doing the binding cut (end up the same as if you had just tucked under kerfed lining).

BTW, you should really only tuck the X-Braces

Tools needed:

http://www.amazon.com/Dockyard-380-5000 ... ro+chisels

http://www.amazon.com/Zona-35-050-008-I ... words=zona

EDIT: Sorry, I tuck the X-Braces for the top only, and all braces for the bottom. I also use the marking method below (in conjunction with copy paper), line up marks with straight edge.

Mike
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
I leave the upper transverse braces and upper x's at 1/8" height. The lower x's a t bars I taper to zero before the linings. To cut the notches, I place the top on the body with the centrelines aligned. I then put a bit of weight on it so it doesn't slide around. Then on the sides I mark with pencil underneath where the braces will line up. I then use a razor saw to cut the outside edges of the pocket, then use a trim router to cut the pockets.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Clay S. wrote:
I like to end "tucked" brace ends about a mm away from the ribs. This allows for some seasonal movement (shrinkage) which in extreme cases can pop the bindings loose from the sides if the brace ends butt against them.


I had to re-read that to get what you were saying. But I have a question. Since the bracing is glued to the kerfed lining, does it really matter? Won't the brace just push the lining out into the binding (as an extension of the brace)?
Author:  RusRob [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Mike O'Melia wrote:
If there is a better approach, I want to know, because mine is difficult at best.


Mike, there is a much better way...

Being an artist I have a wide range of pastel chalk that I use for marking stuff on guitars. I just dust the tops of the braces with chalk and then put the top down in place. When it is located I then just put some pressure on the spots where the braces are located. Next I remove the top and make sure each spot is marked with chalk. I use my dremel to cut out the channel making sure I don't cut it to wide. Then I wipe as much of the chalk off of the spots and redust the braces and do the process again. This time I can see where the channel I cut is and where the chalk rubs on it so I know where to remove more material. About 3 or 4 tries and I can get the braces to fit in the channel perfectly.

I use the same process when setting a dovetail neck except I use different colored chalk after a few tries. I usually start with white or light blue and when I get close I switch to red or purple because the joint usually has the previously used chalk all over it. I have been doing it that way for years and It seems to work really well for me.

Hope it helps [:Y:]

Cheers,
Bob

I should note that Pastel Chalk is not like regular blackboard chalk in that it is very soft and fine. Although regular chalk will work the artists chalk will leave a much more defined mark when transfered by a brace or another piece of wood. Plus it comes in cool colors..... laughing6-hehe
Author:  dnf777 [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Thanks for all the helpful replies. I posted earlier, but it didn't get through. I like the chalk trick Bob mentioned and may try it out. I ended up tucking the brace ends into the kerf only, leaving about a mm for expansion, since our humidity varies from about 30% in winter, to 2" flooded in the basement last month! Like my first violin many years ago, I will keep this first guitar around as a reminder of the numerous lessons and mistakes made. Hopefully, it will sound nice enough to play once in a while too!
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Clay S. wrote:
I like to end "tucked" brace ends about a mm away from the ribs. This allows for some seasonal movement (shrinkage) which in extreme cases can pop the bindings loose from the sides if the brace ends butt against them.


I had to re-read that to get what you were saying. But I have a question. Since the bracing is glued to the kerfed lining, does it really matter? Won't the brace just push the lining out into the binding (as an extension of the brace)?


Hi Mike,
You might think it would work that way, but what seems to be happening is the the top shrinking (and the brace not) pulls the rib/lining/binding in, which makes the brace push the binding out in those places where they touch. It generally only happens under extreme conditions, but it does happen.
Author:  DannyV [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
meddlingfool wrote:
I leave the upper transverse braces and upper x's at 1/8" height. The lower x's a t bars I taper to zero before the linings. To cut the notches, I place the top on the body with the centrelines aligned. I then put a bit of weight on it so it doesn't slide around. Then on the sides I mark with pencil underneath where the braces will line up. I then use a razor saw to cut the outside edges of the pocket, then use a trim router to cut the pockets.

Must be a Wet Coast thing. I do pretty much the same. FWIW I've only tucked the lower end of the X on one guitar. It was the only guitar I wasn't happy with. I'm sure it could be done well.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
I've always tucked in the lower bout X-Braces into the lining and I think it's a good idea as Clay mentioned to leave a bit of space. I've seen brace ends pop out bindings before and if can be avoided then why not? Having said that after much consideration I think I'm going to start tapering to zero. It just seems to make sense to loosen up the top as you approach the stiff rim.
Author:  gozierdt [ Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
I started out tucking both ends of the X-brace, plus the UTB. Now I only do the upper ends of the X, plus
the UTB. I also use a dremel as a router to cut the linings- not the sides- after marking where to cut, and
leave a little space between the end of the brace and the sides, as several have mentioned above.
Author:  Tom West [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
I allow all 4 ends of the X brace to go through the linings. On the lower ends I then cut of the ends where they emerge from the lining. This allows one to have the advantage of the indexing by the little stubs and still taper the ends of the lower X to nothing. Two birds one stone.
Tom
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
I do not go through the sides for 2 reasons
A movement vis RH or a tap can in some cases pop the binding off
B cutting through the side can cause a stress riser where a crack can form.

I have seen both happen.

On a side note I have seen people notch only to find the notch isn't covered by the binding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARZ65TtDu8
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
I've always tapered the lower X as well as the face braces to nothing just shy of the linings. Notch in the upper X and top brace. That's how I was trained and see no reason to change.

I notch only the lining. Cutting the edges of the notch with a razor saw and doing the actual notch with a Dremel on a base is one way that works.


Image
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Tom West wrote:
I allow all 4 ends of the X brace to go through the linings. On the lower ends I then cut of the ends where they emerge from the lining. This allows one to have the advantage of the indexing by the little stubs and still taper the ends of the lower X to nothing. Two birds one stone.
Tom

That is brilliant!
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Image[/quote]

Terence, is that a wooden sub base on your Dremel router base? If it is, that is a good idea. I love mine, but when I received my "precision" router base I had to spend about an hour on the diamonds trying to get it flat!
Author:  George L [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Tom West wrote:
I allow all 4 ends of the X brace to go through the linings. On the lower ends I then cut of the ends where they emerge from the lining. This allows one to have the advantage of the indexing by the little stubs and still taper the ends of the lower X to nothing. Two birds one stone.
Tom

I'm not following this clearly. I can't picture how the lower ends have stubs that would index to anything once they have been cut off short of the linings and tapered to zero. I'm always looking for a better way to do something, so if you (or someone else) wouldn't mind elaborating a little further it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
pat macaluso wrote:
Image


Terence, is that a wooden sub base on your Dremel router base? If it is, that is a good idea. I love mine, but when I received my "precision" router base I had to spend about an hour on the diamonds trying to get it flat![/quote]

It's actually cork Pat as I use it also for routing the finish off tops for the bridge.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Hi George,
The impression I get from reading Tom's post is that he first fits the back ,notching the linings and allowing the braces to fit into them. He then cuts through the lower X braces at the point they meet the linings. He then tapers the lower legs to nothing, but leaves the little "stubs" that fit into the linings intact. When the back is glued on the little stubs take the place of the removed section of lining. Atleast that is how I am reading it.
Author:  George L [ Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Thanks, Clay. So, trim and notch the lower brace ends just as you do the uppers, then taper them just shy of the lining, leaving the remaining end as a "nub" that still keys into the notch.

Hmm... if I'm imagining this correctly, we're talking about something like this:

Image
Author:  Tom West [ Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
George: Sorry I never got back. Just noticed your post, but Clay explained it very well. Thanks Clay.
Tom
P.S. Your drawing is also correct George.
Author:  George L [ Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginners question about tapering braces to fit sides
Thanks for the clarification, Tom. As usual, I agree with Pat. It's brilliant!
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