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| Fish glue not holding in high humidity http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43754 |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I know about guitars and humidity but the way fish glue lets go when humidity is moderately high is ridiculous. I glued some linings to the side and it basically self released when there was a bit of tension in the lining... I am not sure if I can trust fish to hold up at all. I think I will stick with Titebond I from now on. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
How long did you clamp the lining? Did it let go immediately, or was that later when the guitar was exposed to higher humidity? |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
It was clamped for over 24 hours, and the lining seemed to let go slowly in high humidity. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
how old was the fish glue? I have not had any issues using it. It does have a shelf life and always test. I don't do any gluing with anything above 60% RH |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
You are not the first to encounter this problem... |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
It's only a few months old... |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
And humidity? - around 70%? |
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| Author: | WilliamS [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
3 things: Did you mix/shake the glue well before use? and As already asked, what was you're humidity at glue-up? and Did everything fit tightly, thin glue line? |
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| Author: | quentinjazz [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
Hi! Did this glue ever encountered freezing (during transportation??)...? Q. |
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
Whether or not fish glue lets go in high humidity has been discussed a lot, with a few people reporting that it does and the great majority reporting that it does not. I have seen hide glue joints come apart when exposed to high humidity (old guitars separating into pieces in damp basements, ivory piano keyheads delaminating in humid living rooms) and I can believe that fish glue might fail in similar circumstances. I have not observed any problems with fish glue that I have used in the last several years, and personally I feel very comfortable using it for any wood objects that are cared for the way guitars should be. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
Just to quickly weigh in here -- I put a test piece out in exposed Florida weather (rain, high humidity, and right next to an inter coastal waterway) - a couple weeks later and it was still fine -- however, it was not under tension. I can't tell you how many guitar interiors I've seen with very poor fitting kerfing. I'm not saying this is the problem here but the hide glues do require very tight fitting joints. My suggestion has always been to use Titebond until you consider your quality pretty much perfect -- if not, then you aren't quite ready for hide glue yet. Guitar building has a lot of curved glue joints with thin flexible pieces and proper gluing techniques with cauls and specific clamps are often needed. General woodworking and hide glue are much more forgiving but with lutherie, there is no room for error when using hide glue. My opinion is that it is an excellent glue that holds up very well in high humidity situations. Submerging the piece will present problems much faster than with other glues but you should never have that problem and if you do, you would likely have other issues as well. Just one person's opinion. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I think I will run a little experiment with some fish glue to simulate the joint under tension. The test will incorporate a several inch glue joint in Mahogany. I will hang a 5 pound weight on one end to stimulate tension and I will do this outside in rainy, Florida weather. I might suggest others who have fish glue try this as well and see how the joint holds up. |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
What do we know about the history of fish glue? I've mostly had excellent results with it. In general, it clings tenaciously to surfaces that the aliphatics have trouble with. But I've had some failures. We all know that hide glue works, and goes on working--except when it doesn't. (Mold can be a factor. In older guitars, where the hide glue has failed, you have to guess: bad glue? Bad application? Bad surface preparation?) When aliphatics were introduced, in the 1950's, they were quickly adopted by guitar builders in Spain and Mexico. I repaired an Ignacio Fleta classical from 1957 that was built entirely with "white glue". The Paracho luthier I worked with, and trained under, began his apprenticeship around 1960. He is familiar with both hide glue, and aliphatics. For most jobs, he prefers "resistol"--aliphatics. So I'm curious--how long has modern "fish glue" been around? Is it different from what was available 50 years ago? If not, why did guitar builders on two continents opt for aliphatics? |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I just know with Titebond glue, I have never had any failure with it. It holds until you get it hot enough to release, and even then it releases with great difficulty. Hide glue worked for me too but for some reason I had unexplained loose brace with them, I don't know what but for some reason the hide glue simply doesn't stick, had it happen before too and could not explain why it happens. Could have been oil, oxidation but it was never an issue with titebond I. So on commissions, I'm not taking any chances, I'm using Titebond I. Hide worked well for me in repair applications though... |
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| Author: | Lonnie J Barber [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
Tai Fu I agree with you. I use Titebond II and have been happy with its ability to hold. I'm not quick enough for hide glue. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I just don't see the point in using hide glue. None of the supposed reasons for the superiority of hide glue stand up to scrutiny in my book, especially since Titebond works so well and is so easy to use, comparatively. I just don't see the point, especially fish glue. Every few weeks or months, someone pops up a thread about fish glue being problematic, and the same people come to it's defense, so it doesn't seem to me that it's widely used with few reported problems, rather the opposite. It's rarely used, and only a few people seem to have success with it. In fact, Titebond is the glue that is most widely used with the fewest reported problems. The main issue with Titebond is theoretical in nature, IE it is widely reported that Titebond, being a thermoplastic polymer, exhibits cold creep. The thing is, HIDE GLUE is ALSO composed of collagen, which is in fact ALSO a thermoplastic polymer, and therefore ALSO exhibits cold creep, but is simply not as strong, as numerous tests have born out. Frankly though, I don't think creep is really a problem in the application of luthiery, I put that in the category of myth. I havenever personally seen it unless the guitar has been abused. In fact, the only times I've seen it are on brand new Gibsons shipped straight from the factory, and the laquer appears to have crept and reflowed as well, which tells me that the guitar has really been subjected to an extreme temperature, so in my book that doesn't qualify as "cold" creep. |
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| Author: | WilbPorter [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
What kind of wood were you gluing? I glued linings to a cocobolo set with fish glue without either sanding or scraping directly before gluing. Later I was able to pop them of too easily. Acetone and thinner just seems to make the problem worse. After I removed them, I sanded, then reapplied fish glue and linings. Everything is fine now. A good fit is also necessary. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I'd thought I would chime in this thread one more time and offer some advice -- it seems a number of folks disagree with me and that is perfectly acceptable -- nobody has all the answers and I'm fully aware that applies to me. My one concern is that some of you might be blaming the glue for what is a "process" problem. If that is the case, then comments coming from those contexts do not help the community but rather hurt the community because of resulting unfounded concern and misinformation. Take hot hide glue for example. Hot hide glue has a fantastic reputation. It has a learning curve and requires flawless workmanship but once those things are acquired, it is simply as good as it gets for a wood glue. Its only downfall is the short open time. If you are having trouble with hot hide glue then you have a process problem or either you prepared the glue improperly. My experience with fish glue has been similar to hot hide glue -- I have found it to be an excellent glue with its only downfall being somewhat difficult cleanup and a long open time (which is useful in certain contexts). Titebond 1 is an excellent glue - so there is a much more forgiving glue available that, in my opinion, works equally as well as hide glue. I use hot hide glue because its longevity is unrivaled and proven, it is good for marketing in the high end market, it is a massive advantage for repair work, and it has wonderful initial tack allowing precise placement of braces without slipping (Titebond can easily slip and precise brace placement can be slightly more difficult), and is amazingly easy to cleanup. Those features are useful and well worth it to me to acquire the necessary skills to work effectively with it. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I have to agree with my friend the Cat. If you're commonly dealing with high humidity conditions, and your processes aren't ideal, (read: "great"), then you're looking for trouble using either fish or hide glues. And not to sound at all insensitive, but having pretty much beat this subject to death over the last few months, you had to realize that there was going to be some risk in using a hydroscopic glue in high humidity conditions. Stick to Titebond 1 or 2. It won't kill you to use it, and if nothing else, it could be your saving grace given the process level you're currently at and the conditions you're working in. We all like to thing there's an "ultimate" way of building, the ultimate top wood, the ultimate back and sides, the ultimate bracing patterns, glues, etc. etc., but the reality s that a lot of great instruments have been made down through the ages with less than stellar woods and glues and conditions, etc. Over-thinking all this just isn't as necessary as we would often lead others to believe. |
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| Author: | Imbler [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I've made one classical with LMI white, and one with Fish Glue. Zero problems due to either glue. I find each has its advantages and it makes sense to choose the glue whose advantages most fit your situation. I am a hobby builder and am in no hurry. So for me, the long open time of fish glue allows me leisurely, relaxed assembly, and the 24 hour clamp time isn't an issue. For someone in a more production oriented state of mind, I would suspect that the long open time would be of limited advantage (the more you build, the faster you are), and the long clamp times would gum up the work flow. I'm in the camp of use the one you like the best; like has been said above plenty of great guitars have been built with all the common luthiery glues, Mike |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
fish glue can actually be frozen but if you are building under high RH you will find your guitars will show signs of stress in lower RH. If you can't control the RH glue only when you are 50% or lower. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
Imbler wrote: (the more you build, the faster you are) The best builders that I know work slow, methodically, and very carefully. They are in no hurry, because trying to work fast leads to mistakes... |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
In addition to the advantages already mentioned for hide and fish glue I'd also argue that there is a tonal advantage these glues as they dry harder (better sound transfer). I'm a fish glue user for about 7 years. Zero failures. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
I don't agree that Titebond is a "beginner's glue" and hide glue is the "expert level" glue as it seems to be characterized, LOL! Short open time and long clamp times don't seem like advantages to me. Hide glue doesn't form a stronger bond than Titebond, that's been proven. It's MORE than adequate for luthiery though so that's a moot point. The tonal advantage is just mythical. Most of the repairs I do involve guitars that have been glued with AR or PVA glues, and I don't have a problem fixing them. So that basically leaves the marketing advantage and/or snob appeal of saying that you've mastered the art of hide glue as being the only real advantage, and I find that most people don't actually care about that once you educate them. Most people just want a well made guitar constructed with tight-fitting parts and a strong glue. So, basically, just use what you want. If what you like happens to be AR or PVA, don't let anyone make you feel inferior due to your lack of "glue skill". If you like HH glue, build with it and have fun. It's most important that you enjoy your process with whatever glue you like. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish glue not holding in high humidity |
Hi GuitarWhisperer, I don't recall anyone in this thread saying/purporting that Titebond is a beginner's glue. I use it all the time alongside various other types of glues in my instruments. I recall (but not completely sure) that Jeff Traugott uses Titebond (no hide glue) and I know many, many excellent builders use Titebond. **To Clarify -- Titebond is beginner friendly. Hide glue is not beginner friendly. Both types have merits worth considering for beginner & expert alike. Short/long open time can both be benefits depending on the situation. Hot hide glue has wonderful cleanup, which makes it very nice for certain situations. It also has phenomenal initial tack and draws the joint together as it dries. It is a better glue for future repair work since the old glue doesn't need to be cleared away but AR & PVA glues are definitely viable for repair work as well. It has "proven" longevity and it is "traditional" glue -- both of those things are good things in my opinion. You are absolutely correct in stating that Titebond has more than adequate strength for lutherie purposes. I also agree that you shouldn't feel "lesser" for using Titebond -- that would make little sense. |
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