Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Planing Softwood Tops
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43742		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ernie [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Planing Softwood Tops
I would like to change from sanding to planing my western red cedar and spruce tops. I tried sharpening a stanley 220 with a 23 deg angle bedded at 20 deg , but I still get track lines and some tearout which i find annoying , then have to sand it out. I have a number of smoothing planes, but none seem to do a really good job of it. What planes are you using to get the results your after . I/m looking for a nice shiny surface that shows the medullary rays :D Can someone recommend a good plane for planing softwood tops.thanks
Author:  uvh sam [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
What is the point of planing a top if you are going to sand it later for finishing?
Author:  ernie [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
I am planing the tops at different targeted thicknesses over the whole top area . , want to do a minimal of sanding with 150-220. I initially thickness sand the whole top to abt 3.5mm with 80 grit.
Author:  WilliamS [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
A sharp #4 has always worked great for me.
If you're having trouble with a well tuned smoother then you might want to revisit your sharpening and/or planing technique.

Re: track lines, take lighter cuts and make sure your blade is very slightly cambered.

Re: tear-out, again, take lighter passes, make sure your blade is SHARP, make sure you're attacking each side of the top from the right direction, and try angling things a bit at the center joint if that's causing you problems.
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
The only time I've experienced tear out on a top is if the top has a lot of run-out and you're planning against it. As William said, try going from the opposite direction. I use different planes from a block plane to a smoother depending on how mush area I want to work on. Finish with a scraper.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
sometimes, if there is strong runout and throwing the top away is not an option, planning near the center seam will always posit some runout issues. i´ve found out that using an higher angle helps there.
putting a small camber (crown) on a smoother and a slightly higher one on a jack helps with marks.

FWIW the best finish i got straight out of the plane was with a kanna, that i miraculously got "just right". amazing uber smooth finish. then i needed to resharpen it and never got it to perform to the same level and somehow got frustrated with it. speaking of which, i should try to put it to work again.
Author:  david farmer [ Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
A 23 sharpening angle?
I have never had a blade that could handle that low an angle for very long.
maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but it sounds like you are ending up w/ a 43 degree cutting angle. That would still be lower than a regular bench plane at 45.
Even 45 degrees is prone to lifting softwood fibers. If I am understanding correctly I think you should try sharpening that blade @ 30-35 degrees and see how you do.
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
I agree with David, the shallower the included angle the more prone to tearout on face grain but better for endgrain. I would go back to a 25-30 degree bevel on the iron. You didn't say anything about adjusting the frog, I would move the frog to close up the mouth as tight as possible.
Author:  ernie [ Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
thanks for all the tips bliss Finally got .001 euro spruce shavings by regrinding a dull 25 deg blade took over 1 hr though, no tear out when skewing blade with vy tight mouth.
Author:  Frank Ford [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
For a bit of fun, visit the annual planing competition here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Ad6tBdLbM
Author:  ernie [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Impressive at 9 microns ! Frank, but one must spend at least 1.5k on those hand made wide smoothers, I spent abt 1 hr regrinding my spare blade for LN 62 LA jack and .The LN LA jack plane is a bargoon at $265 IMHO. bliss
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Well that was pretty awesome to watch. I'm amazed. How thick is 9 microns?.009?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
[quote="Lonnie J Barber"]Well that was pretty awesome to watch. I'm amazed. How thick is 9 microns?.009?

Pretty much right between 8 and 10 microns. :D laughing6-hehe :D

Alex
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
9 microns = 0.000354"
In other words, it would not even register on my digital calipers that measure to 1/1000.
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Thanks Doug. Man that ain't very much is it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Bart [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
That shaving is so thin it only has one side.
Author:  John Arnold [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Quote:
I am planing the tops at different targeted thicknesses over the whole top area . , want to do a minimal of sanding with 150-220. I initially thickness sand the whole top to abt 3.5mm with 80 grit.


I do a similar thing....thickness sanding the top to around 0.140", then graduate with a plane on the inside surface. I either use a small block plane like a Stanley 101 (high angle), or my reworked #3 clone. To avoid tearout, I hold the plane perpendicular to the grain direction, pushing it at about a 45 degree angle. In this video, the top probably has slight runout, so I am planing on the left side of the center joint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gK3L81LRIU
Author:  ernie [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Thanks john .I got all my low angle LN planes to do the work. The tear out culprit is some runout,The spruce is vy white carpathian from john preston. I have an old stanley 20 deg small block plane for trimming braces seems to like englemann but not carpathian LOL happy 4 th
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Dumb question I know. But why plane if you can use your thickness sander?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  John Arnold [ Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Graduated tops. My tops are thickest in the upper bout, and thinnest on the bass side of the lower bout.
In the video, the front side of the top has already been sanded smooth and flat with 150 grit. The back side of the top is being planed, so minor tearout can be scraped and hand sanded.
I suppose you could get it close by stacking sheets of paper under the top as you run it through the thickness sander. But I enjoy the process of planing, periodically flexing and tapping the top until it is 'right'. It 's not a long process...maybe 15 minutes at most.
Author:  ernie [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Thanks john for the explanation.. I just plane instinctively, but can/t explain why/how
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Area ohm I guess I don't know what you mean by a graduated top. Unless your talking about an Archtop. I've never built one but the first luthiery book I read was on "How to make a fiddle". So I do understand how they are built.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Lonnie J Barber wrote:
Dumb question I know. But why plane if you can use your thickness sander?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like others have said it's to create a sort of topo map on your top. The hill is in the middle by the bridge and it slops down to the edges of the lower bout. I've been doing the same thing for years. There is also another argument for tone. Sand paper crushes wood cells while edge tools just cut nice and clean. I'm not sure I go there myself but it's definitely another reason why some builders do it.
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Planing Softwood Tops
Thanks jfmckenna, I'm new to woodworking. I didn't know sandpaper crushed wood cells. Personally I thought it scratched them off. I'm not that proficient in using a plane or sharpening one either. I'm sure therein lies the problem. Or the rub as it has been said. I try to avoid tools that I'm not good with in favor of something that gets the job done but I don't screw up so much. I wouldn't dare take a plane to one of my tops. Although it is in my future as one of the builds growing in my mind is an acoustic Archtop Jazz guitar. I've loved them since I was a kid. I own a great one or two myself but have always wanted to make one. I guess I need to study and learn how to sharpen tools. I am very good sharpening a pocket knife.
Do they make like a jig that you can put a plane blade into and come out with a great edge? If so I want one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planing Softwood Tops
Hi Lonnie,
You might want to try a few cabinet scrapers. They can give almost the same surface as a planed one with less trouble in many cases.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/