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BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43541		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  Chuck Erikson [ Tue May 27, 2014 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Up until now Brazilian rosewood already in the U.S. was legal to buy, sell, use, and ship interstate even without documentation (much old lumber and many vintage guitars lack paperwork, since it wasn’t previously required). But as of June 26th, as a CITES Appendix I species (like elephant ivory) and in conjunction with the new total ban on all elephant ivory, it will become a felony to buy or sell anything containing Brazilian rosewood unless it has proper documentation (http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/re ... import.pdf). To qualify for the exception: “If the [rosewood] was lawfully imported…before the species was listed…you may continue to use the [rosewood]…provided you can clearly demonstrate (using written records or other documentary evidence) that your [rosewood] was imported prior to the CITES listing, with no restrictions on its use after import. If you are unable to clearly demonstrate that this exception applies, the [rosewood] may be used only for noncommercial purposes.” Good luck to you all trying to get acceptable paperwork for old wood stocks and all those guitars out there...
Author:  Leftyprs [ Tue May 27, 2014 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Looks like the price of BRW just went up yet again!!!
Author:  Herr Dalbergia [ Tue May 27, 2014 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
No, it will go down for wood without paperwork, because it will get worthless, wood with paperwoork will be quite expensive. I think that is a good and correct thing.

Cheers, alex
Author:  Ken Jones [ Tue May 27, 2014 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Hoooo boy....


Ken Jones
Mountain Song Guitars
Author:  DennisK [ Wed May 28, 2014 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Should we place bets on who will get banned by the end of this thread? beehive

Really, probably for the best. At least it's not illegal to possess or work with it. Just means I get to keep the Brazilian guitars I build :lol: Or give them as gifts.

Maybe time to sell off a few bridge blanks, though...
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed May 28, 2014 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Next thing you know jaywalking will become a felony in the US too.

Seems like nearly everything is considered a felony in the US. Surely they could set limits to where someone unknowingly sells a small piece of ivory gets hit with a fine whereas a larger dealer who is more involved in illegal trade and harvesting gets the felony?

I hope African Blackwood doesn't become illegal in the future too.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed May 28, 2014 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Thanks again Chuck for keeping us updated. Bet ebay will be the dumping ground.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed May 28, 2014 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Let's see Honduran Rosewood can sound a lot like BRW IMHO. African Blackwood too as well as some of the Amazon Rosewoods and then there is Osage Orange too which can sound incredible IMHO.

I'm personally not going to miss a beat, this was no surprise and has been coming for a very long time.

And in the words of my hero, Tony Soprano "what are ya going to do....."

Ivory bans, BRW bans in my mind it always goes back to this: What makes a great guitar the materials or the Luthier.... My bets always been on the Luthier - we will get through this.
Author:  RusRob [ Wed May 28, 2014 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Tai Fu wrote:
Next thing you know jaywalking will become a felony in the US too.

Seems like nearly everything is considered a felony in the US. Surely they could set limits to where someone unknowingly sells a small piece of ivory gets hit with a fine whereas a larger dealer who is more involved in illegal trade and harvesting gets the felony?


Jaywalking doesn't deplete scarce resources or kill endangered animals...

The problem with countries that don't have stringent laws on endangered resources or illegal poaching is that they are helping drive up the costs and promoting more poaching because they are enabling demand.

I have no problem with banning things of this nature because it is the only way to stop that activity. If people don't care that poachers kill an animal to the point of extinction and use those products then you are no different than the poacher except you don't have the actual blood on your hands.

I am in no way an activist against this but I think all countries should be doing more to stop the demand.

Hesh is correct, there are plenty of substitutes for these products and we should keep in mind that it IS the Luthier that makes a great guitar not the sum of its parts.

Bob
Author:  Michiyuki Kubo [ Wed May 28, 2014 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
I am not even mad, i am just amazed at chucks beard in his avatar. :lol:
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Wed May 28, 2014 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Well see there ya go. I have been under the impression that elephant ivory has been illegal for many years. It surprised me to find out it still being available. I've thought wow wouldn't it be nice to use ivory instead of of bone. But I'm nearly seventy years old and to my knowledge other then on television I do not think I've ever seen ivory of any sort. Just since I've gotten into this guitar making business have I found out that BRW is going extinct as well.
Yet I see the clear cutting going on in the rain forests of South America. I wonder just how much of that wood being destroyed could have been a nice guitar? I'm ignorant of how many trees there are left. I know a lot more of the Coca plant is being imported into this country. What other uses are there for the wood? Other then maybe keeping a few South American Indians warm. Oh well minds much bigger then mine are probably working this problem out. I don't want to break any laws or cause a specie to go extinct. I just want to make a few guitars. Just a rant cause I didn't have anything else to do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Wed May 28, 2014 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
I imagine the implications for this are terrible for guitars.

-Am I correct in assuming that every antique guitar which has any Brazilian Rosewood and does not have a receipt will become completely worthless? What will become of our cultural heritage?

-Is the vintage guitar market basically gutted? Will some of these shops be able to weather much of their inventory suddenly becoming unsaleable at worst or at least tied up in documentation battles for who knows how long?

-What about every stump wood guitar? It is my understanding that those sets did not have paperwork. They too will be worthless.

-And there are plenty of builders (small and large) who understandably purchased Brazilian rosewood when they could because they believed it to be superior. How many of them can stand to have their inventory depleted like that?

-Chuck had linked (and discussed) a situation in the ivory regs where if the instrument (or object) was worked on or repaired in some way then that date became the new date of manufacture. Will this apply to the times with BRW also? And, if so, will that mean that every vintage Martin that has had a neck reset in the last 20 years will no longer qualify for paperwork even if the paper trail exists?

I could be way off base - maybe there are easier stipulations for documentation than I think there are or cooler minds will intervene and amend the new regs. I hope that is the case.

I have felt honored to work with some of these rare materials. I have tried to treat them with as much respect as I can and do work with them that is diligent, honest, and worthy of what they are. I personally think it is a shame that we (as a craft) will no longer be able to use them in our professional work.

On an aside as well, what about all the Brazilian rosewood veneered furniture out there? All value destroyed? Not to mention everything with a BRW knob or handle? I would imagine there are many more things out there with a small amount of BRW than even ivory.
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed May 28, 2014 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Such is life. Humans have a very difficult time with self control, and the problem seems to be growing exponentially with every generation. Without regulation we push the limit until something breaks. It's sad that things got to this point in the first place. I am the farthest thing from an activist trying to save the environment. You will never see me saying "save the rainforest", "don't eat meat", "carbon emissions are destroying the atmosphere". That said, I completely understand how and why these regulations were put in place. It's a shame that it's going to hurt a lot of people financially (luthiers, furniture makers, anyone with a valuable antique containing BRW). On the bright side like Dennis said, now us poor folk can make ourselves BRW guitars on the cheap. Lol.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed May 28, 2014 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Not really
If you have paperwork and from what I understand your serial number in a martin will be accepted . It is the tained stuff off ebay. I have be only buying from legit sources and did get some sets legalized though I am waiting on the final paperwork to come.
Lets face it , the law is one thing enforcing it is something else. I am sure this is not the highest priority on the the fed list but I would not be surprised to see a few people being made examples of.
I have been keeping a supply chain of documentation for a few years. I can prove where it came from , I have cites paperwork for the wood I have bought. What I did acquire from old sources , I got a legal affidavit of supply but this law is going to difficult to really enforce. I hope the enforcing agency will be fair.
This now made a $50000.00 guitar worth $750000.00 and legal BRW will double. there are always those that want it and will pay for it.
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed May 28, 2014 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
I assume the enforcement will be pretty simple. If you have paperwork it's all good. If you don't you are fined. The government just isn't set up in such a way that they will invest a lot of time and money researching the set of wood you have to see if it's pre ban. If you want paperwork there will be steps in place to get it, though it won't be an easy task. Hell, it takes all day to renew a drivers license anymore hahaha. Don't know for sure that's the way it'll work but I think it's a pretty good guess. The departments in charge of enforcing this are just going to see money anyhow. I don't think they will think twice about slapping a fine on a commercial BRW product sold without paperwork. That's just how the system works.
Author:  uvh sam [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
You won't be just fined. The penalty for illegal trade in cites species is up to $250k and ten years in prison. I would like to know how dealers are going to react to this news
Author:  A.Hix [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
This is the permit application for pre-CITES permits, there is a special section (13) specifically for brw, lumber and instruments..
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-32.pdf

No need to get all worked up..
Author:  Hesh [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
uvh sam wrote:
You won't be just fined. The penalty for illegal trade in cites species is up to $250k and ten years in prison. I would like to know how dealers are going to react to this news


Which should spawn a new MSNBC television series perhaps to be called "Luthiers Behind Bars...." or "BRW Is The New Orange...." or "House Of BRW" where Kevin spacy plots to corner the world market on BRW while all the while murdering his BRW seeking rivals.... :D

I'm not losing any sleep over over it and in fact decided to make some coffe and read the OLF.... ;)
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Haha hesh you crack me up. I like the Mt Rushmore coffee mug. But I'm gonna need to see the paperwork on that tray, lol.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
A.Hix wrote:
This is the permit application for pre-CITES permits, there is a special section (13) specifically for brw, lumber and instruments..
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-32.pdf

No need to get all worked up..



My apologies if I got a little extremist -

Admittedly I have not followed this stuff as closely as others and I very well may be overreacting. I did read some of the links Chuck posted about the ivory and the limits on trade and use seemed much much stricter than what has been in place for BRW since it went on the list.
Author:  Haans [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
I'll just cut it up and use it for laminated bracing and bridge plates.
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Haans wrote:
I'll just cut it up and use it for laminated bracing and bridge plates.

Firewood is a good choice as well.
Author:  A.Hix [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Burton, please don't think I directed my statement at you, not at all, I just meant to this entire community. I saw how so many got worked up over the ivory thread.
I just wanted to try and keep the peace here about this situation. There is a direct way of getting legal paperwork for those concerned about their pre-cites brw inventories in raw and instrument form.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed May 28, 2014 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Burton my friend it's completely understandable and this kind of reaction is kind of sort of a tradition as well here on the OLF... ;)

We have concerns as well. Does this mean that the next pre-war Martin that we need to replace the bridge on has to have.......EIRW..... :? What about my personal BRW instruments? What about my stash? How are repair folks susposed to react when a BRW instrument comes in for repair?

But we also strongly suspect that the dust has not settled, there is still lots to be worked out, much of the guiding principals for the founding of the US was rooted in personal property rights, etc. I'm pretty sure that we will have answers to many of these questions in time.

Until then I am reminded of the old joke about the two bulls, a young one and an old one standing on the top of the hill.... And that's all I am going to say about that here on the OLF.... :D But if you want to hear the punch line you can always call me.... :lol:
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed May 28, 2014 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD TO BECOME ILLEGAL
Hesh, that tray looks like authentic BRW mack-tack, not the cheap imitation stuff from Asia, but the real deal from Scandinavia. No cup rings on that baby!

Alex
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