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Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43497		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  sdsollod [ Wed May 21, 2014 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed May 21, 2014 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
I don't believe so
Author:  kencierp [ Wed May 21, 2014 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
The premium FB's I get from both my suppliers are always 1/4 sawn -- I never even mentioned that in my spec requirements. At one time we made a lot of furniture "Woodland Inspirations" -- It was easy to observe that the flat sawn material has a tendency to cup. The 1/4 and riff not so much. That said I will let others answer the question.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed May 21, 2014 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
IMO Ideally yes. Necessary? No.
Author:  Dkeddy27 [ Wed May 21, 2014 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
I've seen flat sawn fret boards expand( 1/32)past the sides of the neck! I don't think cupping is the issue, but I may be wrong!! Flat sawn sure is pretty.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Wed May 21, 2014 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Depends on the species. Some wood species move more than others with changes in humidity, but most quartersawn (technically vertical grain) samples move about ***edit: half as much as their flatsawn brothers. If your guitar never leaves a humidity controlled studio it doesn't matter, but if you take your guitar out into the desert you're much more likely to experience 'fret sprout' with a flatsawn fretboard.
Author:  kencierp [ Wed May 21, 2014 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Seem that this author views it differently

http://alterra-wv.com/wood/quartersaw.htm

Also on page 75 in Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood" thought to be the bible on the subject by many including me, has photo comparison showing shrinkage differentials in different directions. The slab/flat cut shrinks far more longitudinally (across the width) than the vertical grain material (cut from 1/4 sawn lumber). And the slab/flat cups a great deal.
Author:  sdsollod [ Wed May 21, 2014 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
The reason I asked is that I have typically bought fingerboard blanks from RC Tonewoods and other suppliers but I have recently bought some nice boards from Woodcraft and Klingpour's that I though I could use for fingerboards and bridges, like Ziricote, Cocobolo, etc. I figured that even if they were not 1/4 sawn they would be glued to the neck and therefore would be pretty stable. After all - Fender uses necks that aren't 1/4 sawn...
Author:  kencierp [ Wed May 21, 2014 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Might consider gluing them to the neck with something other than a water based adhesive. That would likely minimize the chance of twisting, cupping or warping. -- Just a thought.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Wed May 21, 2014 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
kencierp wrote:
Seem that this author views it differently

http://alterra-wv.com/wood/quartersaw.htm

Also on page 75 in Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood" thought to be the bible on the subject by many including me, has photo comparison showing shrinkage differentials in different directions. The slab/flat cut shrinks far more longitudinally (across the width) than the vertical grain material (cut from 1/4 sawn lumber). And the slab/flat cups a great deal.


I'm not sure how any of that disagrees with what I said unless you weren't responding to my post. I know a lot of confusion on this subject arises from misunderstood terminology... when most luthiers use the term 'quartersawn' what they really mean is 'vertical grain' and when they say 'flatsawn' they really mean 'horizontal grain'. 'x'-sawn refers to how the log was cut, not the grain orientation. This is what I believe most luthiers mean when they talk about the different grain orientations:

Image

It would be nice if luthiers could all agree to use a set of more descriptive, technical terms, but alas for whatever reason very few ever seem to. I think we can all agree that the big takeaway is to understand that quartersawn/vertical grain wood will move about ***edit: half as much with changes in humidity across the grain as flatsawn/horizontal grain wood, and that there are implications to this for every piece of the guitar, fretboard included.
Author:  kencierp [ Wed May 21, 2014 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Well I am thinking no, we can't all agree because both the previous references I posted and the following indicated that the vertical, riff, quarter saw wood oriented as a finger board will shrink less half as much across the width than a flat, or slab cut FB. Actually every respectable guitar making publication that I have read indicates the same as well -- so I must be highly confused?

2. Grain orientation matters

Boards are characterized as being either “flat sawn” or “quarter sawn.” Quarter sawn lumber (also referred to as “rift sawn” or “vertical grain”) shrinks and expands roughly half as much as flat sawn. Most over-the-counter finish material is flat sawn, and you should assume flat sawn values unless you’re sure your material is quarter sawn. Quarter sawn lumber has annular rings that are oriented between 45 and 90 degrees to the board’s face. Flat sawn grain orientation falls between 0 and 45 degrees to the board’s face.

Image
Author:  kencierp [ Wed May 21, 2014 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Vertical grain in the middle -- flat/slab on the bottom -- From Hoadley

All flat sawn samples show more shrinkage as oriented on the width of a guitar neck






Image
Author:  timoM [ Wed May 21, 2014 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
The quarter sawn/ flat sawn theories are over simplifications at best. Species differ, sawing and or splitting has an effect. How the wood is dried has an effect. How thick the dried slab, billet, etc. has an effect. Bottom line to know and truly understand what a particular piece of wood may do requires a ton of experience. IMO quarter sawing tends to reduce the variables a bit more. A good reason for its popularity in instrument building. But yet there are caviats.

Tim
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Wed May 21, 2014 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Oops yes Ken, I mis-typed... I meant to say that flatsawn wood will move twice as much as Vertical Grained... I had it right in my head but my fingers got it backwards. Thanks for pointing it out
Author:  kencierp [ Wed May 21, 2014 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Ah yes typos -- before the internet I spent a fortune having papers proof read and spell checked etc. Even that did not protect against my weird content brain burps!
Author:  cphanna [ Wed May 21, 2014 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
I think Tim has your answer. That said, in GENERAL terms, a quarter sawn fingerboard will move like any other piece of wood, but it will tend to get thicker and thinner, rather than wider and narrower. Thus, more perceived stability. As Tim said, some woods are more stable than others (by that, I mean less movement overall). But regardless of species, I believe quarter sawn will result in less perceived or "felt" movement. Just my opinion. Others are bound to disagree. Wait and read many responses before making your decision.
Author:  B. Howard [ Thu May 22, 2014 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
There is less expansion in relation to MC across the grain on a quartered piece than a flatsawn one. This is the reason that most T&G red fir porch flooring is quartered, or as it is referred to in the trade, "Vertical grain", to limit seasonal expansion and contraction.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Thu May 22, 2014 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
I think most ebony fretboards out there are flatsawn.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu May 22, 2014 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Tai Fu wrote:
I think most ebony fretboards out there are flatsawn.


I think a lot are indeed and with the really good black stuff it's not easy to even tell if it is.
Author:  sdsollod [ Thu May 22, 2014 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Okay - I'm still trying to decide whether use the boards I bought for fingerboards and bridges... Given that 1/4 sawn is going to be the most stable and expansion and contraction will be more limited than "non-1/4 sawn"... and, if it depends to some degree on the part of the country that you live or how the guitar own pays attention to humidity control... or on the species... Would ziricote and cocobolo be fairly good candidate for using non-1/4 sawn fingerboards and bridges? I understand that paduak is fairly stable in regards to humidity...
Author:  Tai Fu [ Thu May 22, 2014 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
quartersawn isn't trouble free either... I had it cup before too.
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Thu May 22, 2014 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
sdsollod wrote:
Okay - I'm still trying to decide whether use the boards I bought for fingerboards and bridges... Given that 1/4 sawn is going to be the most stable and expansion and contraction will be more limited than "non-1/4 sawn"... and, if it depends to some degree on the part of the country that you live or how the guitar own pays attention to humidity control... or on the species... Would ziricote and cocobolo be fairly good candidate for using non-1/4 sawn fingerboards and bridges? I understand that paduak is fairly stable in regards to humidity...


Check the shrinkage rates... ideally you would want the rates to be the same as your neck material but unless the difference is really extreme I wouldn't think too much about it. Rosewoods are generally quite stable so I bet flatsawn cocobolo is a better bet than flatsawn ziricote. You can likely get most of what you need from wood-database.com or from chapter 4 or 5 of Wood as an Engineering Material on USDA's site (see http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publi ... eader_id=p ). Remember: Radial shrinkage = vertical grain/quartersawn and tangential shrinkage = flatsawn.

Really though as long as the grain is straight it's not a big deal IMO... you'll likely be conditioning the fretboard with oil which will buffer it from humidity changes somewhat and it's not a big piece of wood... the worst that could likely happen is that if the shrinkage rate is really high and if it completely dries out, then the fretboard can shrink past the outside edges of the frets... an inconvenience which is known as 'fret sprout'.

Now I am going to shut up as I am likely to type something completely backwards again if I continue :)
Author:  DennisK [ Thu May 22, 2014 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
+1 to James. Ebony is the real problem wood for shrinkage. Gabon ebony's rates are 8.3% radial, 11.2% tangential. Indian ebony is mores stable though, at 5.4% R, 8.8% T. But most rosewoods' tangential rate is less than ebony's radial rate. Cocobolo is 2.7% R, 4.3% T. Ziricote is 3.5% R, 6.7% T.

Tai Fu wrote:
quartersawn isn't trouble free either... I had it cup before too.

Yep. I put water on the outer surface when gluing, to equalize expansion between the two sides.
Author:  John Sonksen [ Fri May 23, 2014 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
How do I tell if my Ziricote fretboards are quarter sawn?
Author:  ChuckH [ Sun May 25, 2014 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do fingerboards have to be quarter sawn?
Might want to try some old growth quarter sawn plywood. That stuff is the bomb.


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