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Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
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Author:  Nils [ Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
I'm going to be doing a sunburst finish in the near future. I like the look of a rubbed burst to a sprayed burst, so ideally I'd like to rub it on. However, I would also like there to be herringbone purfling. Will the dyes bleed into the pufling causing problems? If so, is there anyway around it, such as sealing the instrument, then bursting over the sealer? Any tips on how to approach this before I start experimenting would be super appreciated!

Thanks,
Nils
Author:  RusRob [ Thu May 01, 2014 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
You didn't say what type of finish you are applying but I would definitely seal it first. I would suggest sealing the perfling with a couple of coats prior to sealing the rest of the guitar. That will give you an extra barrier to protect the perfling from being sanded into.

Again, not knowing what finish you are planning on using the procedure I would use with lacquer is this:

Sand all imperfections out of the wood and finish with 320 grit. Seal the perflings with a couple of coats and lightly sand any rough edges down with 320 grit. Seal the rest with at least 3 coats sanding between coats to get a perfectly smooth finish. Then tape off the binding and perfling. If the prep isn't perfect any problems will be magnified 10X in the shading on your burst. Apply the burst and when you are satisfied with the results remove the tape from the binding and perfling and give it at least 3 or 4 coats of clear before touching a piece of sandpaper to it. When you have a sufficient build up then lightly sand and give it a couple more coats. Then you can block sand it to a smooth finish and give it a final coat of clear.

The reason for sealing it with a few coats before doing the burst is that if you mess it up you can sand the burst off and start over without going down to the wood again. If you apply the burst directly on the wood with die you only have one shot at getting it right or you will have to sand the wood pretty deep to remove the burst. Plus as you mentioned the die will bleed into the perfling even if you tape it off.

I would use the same method with different finishes whether it be Lacquer, Oil or French Polishing but the idea is the same, you want to be able to remove the burst if you make a mistake.

That is how I would do it but I am sure someone else will have a different idea of how to do it. As with anything there are many ways to do things and no one way is the only way.

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu May 01, 2014 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
Adding to what Bob said - after removing the tape over the purfling you can scrape the purfling with a razor blade if the color has bled onto it. When applying the first couple of clear coats over the burst and purfling make them light "mist" coats to lock the color in place without having it bleed onto the purfles (if it does you can scrape them again).
Author:  Nils [ Thu May 01, 2014 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
Thanks Bob! I will be using lacquer to finish. So just to clarify, the dyes (aniline dye) can go over the sealer (vinyl sealer)? This wont cause issues with the lacquer burning into the sealer?
Author:  RusRob [ Thu May 01, 2014 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
Hi Nils,
I have never used dies to hand rub a burst before so I would try it on a test piece first to be sure. I do my burst in a more traditional way using tinted lacquer and spraying them on so a rubbed burst is noting I have any experience with. However I would suggest not applying the dye over a sanded surface since it will enhance even the finest scratches and imperfections. If it were me doing it I would probably spray a coat or 2 of thinned lacquer over the sealer first just to be safe. I say thinned lacquer because you do not want any orange peel or dry spots prior to rubbing the burst on.

Good luck and it would be nice to see your end results.

Cheers,
Bob

BTW, Here is a shot of my last burst I did. It is a Gibson J40 which I rebuilt for myself and decided to give it a traditional Gibson burst like its big brother the J45. Be sure to post some shots of yours when its done. [:Y:]
Author:  RusRob [ Thu May 01, 2014 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
Having thought about your question, I would most definitely spay a couple coats of lacquer over that sealer. When you use Vinyl Sealer you only have 2 hours to spray the clear on. I use Behlen products but I am pretty sure most vinyl sealers have the 2 hour window.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Thu May 01, 2014 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
I'd recommend sealing AND taping. Worked very well for me. Just have to tape very accurately.
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu May 01, 2014 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
I don't see how an aniline dye could be rubbed onto a sealed surface. Water based would bead up, alcohol based would eat into the sealer? Maybe an oil based dye would work?
This is really a question rather than an answer.
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu May 01, 2014 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
RusRob wrote:
Having thought about your question, I would most definitely spay a couple coats of lacquer over that sealer. When you use Vinyl Sealer you only have 2 hours to spray the clear on. I use Behlen products but I am pretty sure most vinyl sealers have the 2 hour window.

I have heard that as well, Rob, but I have not found any mention about it on Behlens web site.
I applied vinyl sealer to a solid body two weeks ago and have not shot any lacquer. I hope I do not have any problems. Thanks for the tip!
Author:  Glen H [ Thu May 01, 2014 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
Sand the sealer to create a mechanical bond if the time has passed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  RusRob [ Thu May 01, 2014 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
dzsmith wrote:
I don't see how an aniline dye could be rubbed onto a sealed surface. Water based would bead up, alcohol based would eat into the sealer? Maybe an oil based dye would work?
This is really a question rather than an answer.


I have never used dye before so I would have no idea how it would work. I use to to custom painting on auto's and I have done many murals using acrylic artists paint over lacquer and didn't have any problems with it. I would give it 24 hours to dry and spray clear lacquer over it. I have seen 10 year old murals that I did and there was no sign of any problems. But then that is a completely different critter...

Again I would still suggest doing some practice pieces first so you know exactly how the materials react with each other.

dzsmith wrote:
RusRob wrote:
Having thought about your question, I would most definitely spay a couple coats of lacquer over that sealer. When you use Vinyl Sealer you only have 2 hours to spray the clear on. I use Behlen products but I am pretty sure most vinyl sealers have the 2 hour window.

I have heard that as well, Rob, but I have not found any mention about it on Behlens web site.
I applied vinyl sealer to a solid body two weeks ago and have not shot any lacquer. I hope I do not have any problems. Thanks for the tip!



Yes sanding the sealer will create a mechanical bond but with lacquers you really want a chemical bond where the 2 coats of finish become one. I will apply my coats of sealer and give each coat enough dry time to allow sanding without gumming up the paper (usually over night). But I do spray a thin final coat of sealer just before spraying the lacquer.

Here are the instructions on the can which states to apply clear after 1 hour:

http://www.shellac.net/instrument_lacquer_howto.html
Author:  Ruby50 [ Sun May 04, 2014 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
I recently did a hand applied sunburst on Sitka spruce. I used the Transtint dyes in water on a suggestion from someone who does a lot of them and is using alcohol - he thought the water would be better for a beginner and it was pretty simple. I did 5 sample boards (spruce 2X8 from Home Cheapo) and had very good control by the time I was done.

I used plastic binding and rosette material to mimic an early Gibson, so scraping took care of any bleeding. I used 3M auto body vinyl tape on the rosette because it would be hard to scrape and it it worked perfectly. Maybe the tape will work on the wood herringbone material.

Make some test pieces and go at it. The bad news is that you can't use brushed on water based varnish or shellac because it dissolves the tints (DAMHIKT), so you have to spray a coat of something over the completed sunburst if you are going to brush or French Polish. I reluctantly used shellac because you never know the age or the quality.

About 2/3 the way through this set of pictures you can see the sunburst progress:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/s ... 130471994/
Author:  Nils [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
So I've completed the guitar at this point. After experimenting on scraps, here is what I did, starting with the guitar completely in the white.

1.)I mixed solutions in jars. By experimentation, I found that I wanted to do a burst that involved 3 different colors that I made using the stewmac colortone dyes. To do this burst, I had a jar of amber, a jar of cherry, and a jar of brown/cherry. Write down what your mixtures ratios are for when you realize you didnt make enough!(my biggest mistake) Also, I had a jar of just alcohol to later use to help with blending.

2.)I masked off places where I didnt want there to be dye. I used the green 3M high adhesion stuff, but I definitely don't think this type of tape is crucial. Just don't use a low tac tape or somethin'.
3.) I rubbed amber dye evenly onto the whole instrument and let dry for 10-15 mins.
4.) I now bursted the back by first rubbing the brown/cherry dye around the edge, and then the cherry dye between the outer edge and the center. I then blended it all using a rag with just alcohol by rubbing from the outside, to the center. The key I found to making this work well was by doing LOTS OF RUBBING! Basically, once the dye was on there and roughly where I wanted it to be, it took to some serious elbow grease to blend it all. This step took about 10 mins of focused work.
5.) I then did the same thing for the sides and neck.
6.) I then did the same thing for the top. The top came out really blotchy. So I did some research and found out that a lot of people (mandolin builders mostly) actually spray the dyes/alcohol solution right onto the spruce tops to avoid the blotchy-ness. I did this the second time and it came out great, except I messed up with the dye/alc ratios so the color was all wrong. I sanded it back again and thought maybe I could get it to look right by just rubbing it. I wasn't exactly right. I also wasn't anxious to saturate the whole top with alcohol again so I stopped right there and settled for what it looked like. The whole instrument looked like it had taken on a lot of moisture during the process and I didn't want to damage it.
7.) After unmasking, I did have to scrape, as expected. The dye did bleed into the purfling, but it scrapped back pretty well despite not being plastic. It was impossible to get all the dye out, but having slightly darker purling isn't jarring and under lacquer, you really cant tell. It actually kinda adds something nice. So, my initial major concern turned out to be pretty minor.
8.) Spray lacquer.

I see lots of ways that I would like to improve the next one, and I really think it's going to be a matter of practicing and doing it a few times. Next time, I think I'll probably go darker with the colors and hopefully I'll get the top right the first time. I will not attempt to burst the top by rubbing. Spraying dye/DA right onto the spruce really seems to be the way to do it. Also, I will try to get higher % alcohol. I think the stuff I had was like 85%. The whole instrument looked a little bloated for like a week, which I really didnt like. Here are some pictures. Sorry they're lousy cellphone pictures. The color is actually a lot more red and less pink in real life. And the one that has the side visible looks much more orange than it really is. But whatever. Hope this helps if anyone has similar concerns at some point!
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbed sunburst and purfling bleed
Thanks for the update! I too plan on doing a hand rubbed sunburst on one of my next guitars (a Nick lucas inspired guitar). there are a couple of vids/info on the inter web that I was going to use as info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjlIAq17aVc
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?55054-Hand-rubbed-sunburst-finish
And another that I downloaded, but can't seem to find - its a mando hand rubbed, but had a spruce top.

I am looking for this type of look:
Attachment:
Sunburst.png


Glenn
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