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Bending info needed
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43292		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ronald Lenz [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Bending info needed
I've seen several mentions of a product called "Super Soft" used as a bending aid. I'm sure this has been covered before but my question is, what is it and where is it available? I tried looking on Google but all i got was cookies, T-shirts and blankets. Probably not what i was looking for. Any help?
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Google "supersoft 2"
Author:  johnparchem [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Super-Soft-2-Veneer-Softener-Conditioner.html
Author:  Ronald Lenz [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Thanks for the info. Another question - After having somewhat of a bending disaster, even though I followed the directions for the lmi bender to the letter, I still got several flats and a little waveyness in places. Would applying Super-soft to the affected areas and then placing back in the form, without heat, be of any help? By the way, the sides were macassar ebony. There was also a little tearing of fibres on the outer bends. Help me save these lovely side pieces!
Author:  Josh H [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Hi Ronald,

I bought a gallon of SS 2 many years ago and had it shipped here to Canada. It is a veneer softener which can be helpful when it comes to bending woods that are figured or considered "difficult" to bend. I've been working on my gallon of SS 2 for years and still have plenty left. if you do buy some you can be sure it will last a very long time. I've found since buying my that a lot of veneer suppliers here in Canada have veneer softener available, often in smaller bottles. I can't comment on how other veneer softeners compare to SS 2. But veneer softener is something that you can find without going over the border. A&M wood in Cambridge ON sell it, and I believe they would ship it as well. $18 for 24 oz.

http://forloversofwood.com/pricelistmisc.aspx?x=0q%2fKaNMaWxx9lyMT6SOg1A%3d%3d

Hope that helps.

Josh
Author:  Josh H [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Hey Ronald,

To answer some of your second questions, I doubt that the veneer softener alone would help correct your problem, even if you clamped your side back in the bender. I find that I usually have to do a little touchup on the hand bender after my sides come out of the machine, no matter what type of wood. Working on hand bender I have also been able to remove some of the waviness from sides. I always use side braces which also helps in removing some of the waviness. Whatever is left at that point can usually be sanded out once the body is assembled. Veneer softener would help with the tearing of the fibres during the initial bend. If I am going to use SS2 on a set of sides I spray both sides lightly with the SS2 and then wrap them in a plastic bag and let them sit over night.

You may be able to repair or prevent further tear out with some CA glue, depending on how bad it is.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Just curious, how thick are your slats?
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
I think it is safe to say that I may bend more wood than most here. Last year I bent over 300 sets. Here are a few basic things I have learned from those that have called me . Most do it wrong so here are basic bending rules to follow

1 thickness should be .075 to .085
most bend way too thick
2 temp
Bending is about getting the cells to collapse so SS2 is a good product but isn't needed for every piece . I use for most woods
1 st bend lower bout 220F
2nd bend upper bout 250
3rd bend waist 270
run temp to 325 - 375 depending on the wood , hold a min then set to 220 for 10 min to get the water out . Allow to cool and place in mold.

The total time needed to bend is about 4 minutes. Many that have called tell me how then allow the wood to heat up to 300 , that is a no no.

other issues I have had over the years.

low wattage blankets , while they get hot can often take too long . You want the heat to the wood as fast as you can get it there.
Water no soaking too much water can cause more issues , water is more an anti scorch agent and it allow fast penetration of heat.
slats They support the side, too thin won't support too thick won't bend well in tight areas.
stainless steel won't stain spring steel will so you need a barrier for that
foil I only used that as a barrier to the spring steel
paper helps by bringing water into the bending cycle but not over wetting the wood. Wet heat can penetrate better than dry.
controllers All you need is a thermometer you can check the points where you want to bend. Don't assume that if the blanket is 220 on the lower bout that it is 220 at the waist.

DON"T TAKE OUT TOO SOON
if the side is still warm allow to cool to room temp , if you take it out too soon they relax.

so this is a basic list. There are many techniques that work and sometimes you just get lucky.

On cutaways more crack from getting out of the bender than the bending itself.

lastly wood selection.
I have found that of all the woods I bent Mahogany can sometimes be brackish and will crack across the grain. I can't Identify it but it will crack or not bend well no matter what you do. African is more susceptible to this than Honduran. Some woods like more heat and less water , Maple in one. Not all woods have to be quartered , but they are few. Maple and Mahogany can work well both ways.
Rosewoods need to be as well quartered as they can.


hope this info helps.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
John, that was a very informative post. Do you have videos of u doing your process? I've not used the three step process before
Author:  Doc [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
I might add that spritzing SuperSoft II to already bent wood causes it to lose the bend--almost immediately. Don't ask me how I discovered this [headinwall]
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... rs+bending

here is a section on you tube of bending
thanks hope this helps
Author:  arie [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
i'm told Downey Fabric Softener will work too. wouldn't know myself.
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Doc wrote:
I might add that spritzing SuperSoft II to already bent wood causes it to lose the bend--almost immediately. Don't ask me how I discovered this [headinwall]

I bend over a pipe rather than a heating blanket. I have found SSII to be useful after I do my bending to work out small kinks and irregularities. I spray the piece with SSII, clamp it up to the form, leave over-night and the next morning the side is nearly perfect. Water alone has the same affect to some extent but SSII works much better.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Thu May 01, 2014 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Ronald,

In regards to fixing the 'flat spots and wavy sections', I've had the most luck with doing this. Take a old steam iron, the kind for ironing clothes, and use it to flatten the problem areas. Then do a supersoft dousing and let them soak overnight. Then put a strip of paper on each side and spray some with water. Then put it in the bender and do it again. Follow John's guidelines and you should be fine.
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Thu May 01, 2014 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
Can I ask a slightly off-topic question?
Occasionally when bending on a pipe the sides have come out twisted so that they don't lay flat. Presumably this is because when I bent them the wood was not perpendicular to the pipe.
I've never been able to rectify this by re-heating and twisting in the opposite way on the pipe.
Would SS be a solution for this?
Any other remedies?
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu May 01, 2014 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
If you are using a building form or mold this is not all that bad as long as the sides conform to the mold. You may be surprised at how much they will flex to fit.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Thu May 01, 2014 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bending info needed
One thing I would add is that you want the wood, not just the blanket, to be up to temp before bending. The blanket might be at 220* but the wood is not necessarily up to that temp as fast as the blanket.
That is all.
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