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Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43248		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  murrmac [ Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I cannot help but observe that on all youtube videos, and also on all associated blogs, when a shooting board is demonstrated, it is invariably shown with an inclined plane.

I am talking here about shooting boards which are designed to assist with the production of soundboard center joints.

My question is ...why the inclined plane?

In days of yore , it was common, nay universal, in cabinet making workshops, to have shooting boards with an inclined plane, for the sole purpose of squaring off workpieces (which might be shelves ...drawer sides ...or whatever) ... these workpieces were always presented to the plane to have the end grain trimmed. In this situation it made perfect sense to have an inclined ramp, to equalize the wear on the plane iron (which is of course greater on end grain than on parallel grain)

But why do we persist in advocating the inclined ramp when it comes to jointing a soundboard?

A moment's thought will indicate that a level ramp is far more preferable ...it eliminates all possible discrepancies which might be incurred by the plane iron being sharpened with a slight curve, or possibly not being set dead parallel to the plane sole in the first place. Additionally, there is no wear whatsoever on the plane iron when truing a spruce soundboard, and even if there were, it would be the simplest thing in the world to slip a masonite shim under the side of the plane to introduce a fresh, unused , section of the iron .

Am I right, or a meringue?
Author:  Goat Rock Ukulele [ Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
the problems you point out do not play out in the real world unless your plane is setup very very badly

advantages
You plane blade will stay sharper longer.
You get a shearing effect which to some degree will produce less tearout.

To name a few advantages of and inclined shooting board.
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
the thinner wood likes it and it uses more of the blade. In cabinet shops they don't use a lot of 1/8 in thick wood
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
It's all about blade wear, but not a real problem, as you point out, unless you're jointing boards all day.

Unlikely for most of us.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I've actually been wondering the same. I built one with a ramp but have been thinking about redoing it flat. It has to be the board, not me, right?
Author:  Deserter [ Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I work as a.cabinet maker as a day.job, and we.use inclined boards for the sole reason that it introduces the blade at an angle, instead if perpendicular to the grain. This not only makes things easier, but also cleaner. It has absolutely nothing to do with wear on the plane or the iron.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk
Author:  wadkin [ Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
When your shooting Hardwood back and sides such as Cocobolo, that portion of the blade gets blend very quickly I can assure you. Like others mentioned it's more of a slicing action, but it does require the blade to be set up perfectly square. Personally I like to set up my block plane so fine that it only starts to cut off a whisper when I apply a certain amount of pressure, and just take off the high spots which only works if the blade is razor sharp. This may seem silly to people who take of thicker shaving with a big jack plane, but it takes away very little material meaning one can get away with using, smaller classical sets which are cheaper.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I have a nice shooting board that even uses a metal straight edge to guide the plane. It's flat. I still have to work at it to get a good joint. I think I must need a slope.... that must be it!!!
Author:  Haans [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Actually, spruce does dull a blade...as cardboard dulls a utility knife. An healthy incline is good. It is about shearing action. Take a look at a picture framer's mitre slicer sometime.
If your blade is rounded, you need to sharpen your skills...
Author:  ernie [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I use just a flat ramp made pine /mdf an hdboard. But I have a homemade japanese jointer plane from OO that takes a .0005 shaving, The blade is old handmade an vy sharp, and does not need as frequent sharpening as a western blade. I also use a L/N low angle jack with one blade for softwoods an another with 40 deg microbevel for softer hdwds e.g.walnut ,mahog, and the japanese jointer for vy hard woods. rosewoods .There is an advantage to the ramped shooting board. I have a L/N low angle rabbett plane with a skewed blade that takes a vy fine shearing cut which leaves a vy fine and smooth edge.ready for glueing.
Author:  timoM [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Yep, pure and simple it's about blade wear and a shearing angle. If you ever get a chance to see a veneer guillotine it become very clear.

Tim
Author:  George L [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I followed the norm and built my shooting board with an inclined ramp. I plan to build another with a flat ramp, just to see how it feels. I'm randomly ambidextrous at various motions and find myself wanting to work planes with either hand. I blame my parents for this, as my mother was an artist and father an engineer. If I don't concentrate, I walk in circles.
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Possible explanations:
1. It just looks way more cool than flat
2. It makes planing easier as you are pushing downhill
3. The first guy to make one screwed up and everyone else followed suit.
4. It enables the shavings to roll away from you resulting in a plane that is 0.0000001" flatter over a 22" span...provided HHG is used.
5. Better for tall people

Feel free to add #6, #7,... to this incredibly insightful list. We may want to eventually post it to Wikipedia.

Btw...mine has a ramp.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
doesn´t approaching the wood with a skewed blade relative to planning direction decrease blade angle? i don´t know if that´s an advantage or not...
Author:  murrmac [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Doug Balzer wrote:
Possible explanations:
1. It just looks way more cool than flat
2. It makes planing easier as you are pushing downhill
3. The first guy to make one screwed up and everyone else followed suit.
4. It enables the shavings to roll away from you resulting in a plane that is 0.0000001" flatter over a 22" span...provided HHG is used.
5. Better for tall people

Feel free to add #6, #7,... to this incredibly insightful list. We may want to eventually post it to Wikipedia.

Btw...mine has a ramp.


Doug has nailed it IMO...

If you have a dedicated plane for edge jointing ( which would by definition have an iron with a dead straight edge as opposed to the very slight curve which most experienced woodworkers hone into their smoothing or block planes) , then the ramped shooting board makes perfect sense, as it does utilize the full width of the blade.

The much vaunted "shearing action", however, in relation to planing the edge of a 1/8" thick piece of spruce 22" long is a fallacy ... picture framers' guillotines have a 45 degree angle on the cutters, and veneer cutting is a wholly different ball game ...it's more akin to how you would cut veneer with a utility knife ...you obviously wouldn't hold the knife vertical ...you would hold it at a 45 degree angle (or even less). Similarly, when planing a piece of figured timber, you would normally angle the plane at 45 degrees to the direction of cut in order to give an effective shearing angle.

The ramped shooting board, however, which is unlikely to have a slope much greater than 1 in 10 (and probably a lot less if your plane iron is less than 2" wide, as most will be ) doesn't really give any effective shearing action ...the angle at which the blade contacts the edge of the workpiece is at best 5 degrees off the square . and probably less... considering that you are only removing .0005" on each pass ... I don't think the shearing action would be much different than having everything parallel and level.

I am aware that I could be wrong, however, so if there is anybody out there who has done it both ways, ie level and ramped, and has noticed a significant improvement in results due to the 5 degree angle imparted by a ramped shooting board ... I will grovel and eat humble pie.
Author:  Haans [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Tell you what...
Since I don't care to see you grovel and I don't care to make another that's flat and do a lot of "wordy research" for your edification, do as you like.
Let "Mikey" do it and you folks can have a 10 page discussion on it...
I have guitars to build and a few mandolins too.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Doug Balzer wrote:
Possible explanations:
1. It just looks way more cool than flat
2. It makes planing easier as you are pushing downhill
3. The first guy to make one screwed up and everyone else followed suit.
4. It enables the shavings to roll away from you resulting in a plane that is 0.0000001" flatter over a 22" span...provided HHG is used.
5. Better for tall people

Feel free to add #6, #7,... to this incredibly insightful list. We may want to eventually post it to Wikipedia.

Btw...mine has a ramp.


6. It is ergonomically easier on the wrist to use the ramped board. Down (slightly) and away is easier than level and away. I would build one with the maximum amount of ramp for the longest cut that you would typically use.

Alex
Author:  murrmac [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Haans wrote:
Tell you what...
Since I don't care to see you grovel and I don't care to make another that's flat and do a lot of "wordy research" for your edification, do as you like.
Let "Mikey" do it and you folks can have a 10 page discussion on it...
I have guitars to build and a few mandolins too.


petulant, Haans ... only trying to debate a sensible issue ...
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Actually, the wood is ramped, the plane is flat. I built mine with the low side at the front, going uphill from there, so the plane wouldn't 'lift' the wood. Though if that actually happened with the board the other way, something would obviously be going south from the start.

What surprises me is that it can go wrong at all. Some pieces go well, especially spruce, others, not so much. Notably a set of flame walnut that has successfully resisted a jointer, a LV # 4, and a Stanley # 7. Frankly I don't understand how you can fail with a 7. Yet I can...
Author:  murrmac [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
meddlingfool wrote:
Actually, the wood is ramped, the plane is flat.


Well .... there are four different ways you can construct a shooting board ...you can make it dead level and parallel ...you can angle the the platform which supports the workpiece to either go up or down with the plane still riding on a level plane ...or you can make the work-supporting platform level and the plane run down an incline.

Theoretically there is a fifth way in which you could construct a shooting board where the support platform is level and the plane runs up an incline ... probably not too many takers on that however ...
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I have been using hand planes (mostly that I make myself) in a professional setting for over 30 years and I don't have or use a inclined ramp. I do as was suggested in the first post and put a 1/4" piece either under the plane or under the stuff and rough things in, then pull the piece out do the final work with a fresh part of the blade. Well sometimes I do that, usually it only takes a few strokes to get the joint perfect so I just go for it.
Is the inclined ramp thing a good idea, I think so in theory but in practical use I haven't found it to be necessary. In fact if it is a sharing cut one is after one would get a much better effect with a plane with a angled blade. Been there, done that and it wasn't a noticeable improvement although it was pretty interesting to make that plane.
In my shop I do general woodworking (furniture, cabinets, boats,etc,) as well as guitars and repair and routinely plane shop sawn veneer 3/32" thick or so at table lengths where a sloped board would be pretty minimal as to the angle formed for a "shearing" cut. The longer the board the less shearing effect. (much more effect and benefit on endgrain shooting boards where you are usually dealing with stuff 12" or less) The main benefit in this case would be for blade wear which could be a important consideration in abrasive woods. Again haven't made a board for the longer stuff , let alone a sloped one for this. I usually just put down a piece of mdf on my work table to elevate the work. ( I do have a dedicated board for guitar tops and backs) but the plane does not ride against anything but the work. The board just holds the work and elevates so it can be planed.
I will say about having the plane ride against a piece of metal or the jointing board, this is fine for a short soled plane and a endgrain shooting board but for longish edge jointing work this idea seems to be another work around to learning the shoot a edge joint. The sole of the plane is the reference and a very accurate one at that. No need to try to introduce another reference.
Author:  Haans [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
murrmac wrote:
petulant, Haans ... only trying to debate a sensible issue ...

Perhaps...my apologies. Sensible issue..."debatable". That seems to be the way this board rolls. Anything for a debate. Folks gave you their thoughts and you debate that...

BREAKING NEWS ALERT:

"Theoretically, five ways to make a shooting board!"

You guys sit up at night making this stuff up? Verbose much? Sounds like a yuppie in a fancy shop that pets his tools.

Make your shooting board, join your tops and get on with building...and life. [uncle]
Byeo...
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
Like anything else . If a technique works and is repeatable , does it really matter ?
Author:  Ruby50 [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
I use 2 different boards. The first one is iron and is the ideal and what all boards aspire to be. It has a skewed blade for the cleanest cuts, lots of weight to power through long/wide cuts, and is adjustable to any angle. Check the skew - it takes the tiniest of shavings over even very wide boards at over 1-1/2" thick without any tear-out. Thicker than that and these old bones can't get it to work well.

However, it weights so much it is a hassle to lift off the floor and get to bench height, so I made a wood one for everyday use while I use the iron for when I have large amount of shooting to do.

The wooden one has a ramped board - note that this does not skew the blade enough to get the effect of the skew. Also, the downhill amount is not enough to help. The reason for the ramp is that it uses a bot more of the blade so there are fewer sharpenings going on. I have used both flat and ramped and I don't find the ramped to be any real advantage. You still have to have a close tolerance backer to avoid some tear-out.

I use a dedicated #5 (14" plane) with the blade ground straight as opposed to cambered. I picked one where the bottom (right) cheek and the sole were square to each other - not all are. The handle was a great addition and I highly recommend something to rest your hand on if you are using a bench plane. I have also used a 5-1/4 plane (12" long, narrower plane) and it works for everything we would need on a guitar.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/ ... 0925323123
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why the inclined ramp on a shooting board ?
About as easy to just put a piece of plywood or MDF on the bench and put your top/back set on it and shoot the joint with the plane resting on the bench. Much easier to store.
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