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Oil Neck Finish?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42816		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Oil Neck Finish?
Having just done my first oil finish on a Mahogany neck, I can't see myself going back to nitro unless a specific reason. I like it a lot. :D Just wondering if anyone has used oil on Maple? I'm not sure what it would look like in a few years. Mahogany looks OK with a a bit of dirt in it but not so much with Maple. My first store bought guitar had a Maple neck with a fairly thin satin nitro finish. It started to look a little grotty in the end. I suppose if one was to use an off the shelf finish you could include re coat instructions for the customer.

Those that have done them, what's your favourite finish? I used a mix of equal parts oil poly, boiled linseed and thinner with a shot of Japan Dryer.

Thanks,
Danny
Author:  Ron Belanger [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
I like Waterlox
Author:  Josh H [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
I've been using Tru-oil for a while now. Still working on perfecting my technique, but I prefer the durability of the finish over Nitro (which I have used in the past). Right now I am finishing off the Tru-oil by sanding level with 600 and rubbing out with fine steel wool.

I plan to do some comparisons to Waterlox. is there anyone out there who has done some Tru-oil vs Waterlox comparisons?

Josh
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Waterlox....
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
No wonder I've never used Waterlox. There's only 3 dealers in Canada. I've used Tru Oil Josh. I felt with a build up of coats, which you would want on Maple, it wasn't any slipperier than nitro.

How many coats of Waterlox to get enough of a build up that wouldn't wear through for a while? It must be pretty tough. I see it's used on floors. Google searches call it Waterlox tung oil. Is it tougher than other types of tung oil? I've never used it but I know people that use it on floors.

Thanks

I also see Waterlox has a few different products. Which one would you use?
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
I have over 1200 sq.ft. of red pine floors in my house finished with... Waterlox! The Library Of Parliament's magificent wood floors are finished with... Waterlox. Yes, it's tough!

For a guitar neck, I just wipe it on until it begins to hold a bit of a gloss, and then buff -hard- with a fresh clean cloth to "cure" and harden it. Takes about 10 minutes. Ready to play the next day, and so far, I might have to repeat the buff or even sand it a bit with 320 every 1 or 2 years. One client who plays constantly benefited from a quick re-application at about the 3 year mark, though he hadn't actually worn through it... It would be a permanent finish if you build it up more than I do, but when I use it I'm after the "unfinished neck feel" that many of us enjoy. It does 'build' a LOT faster than Tru-oil from my experience.

The only formulation I've used is their original one, not the low VOC or the high gloss ones.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Waterlox sounds cool. Do you do a pore fill on woods like Mahogany Grumpy? How about staining?

With Tru-Oil I've been polishing the wood to maybe 600 or more and wiping on a dark oil based pore filler for color and fill. I sure learned to stay away from Z-Poxy under Tru-Oil. I had to refinish several fuzzy necks.
Author:  George L [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
We used walnut counters in our kitchen remodel. Finished with Waterlox Original. Four years later they still look great and are holding up fine. May freshen them up with a light sand and re-coat one day.

George :-)

Image
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Very nice, George! BTW, you don't need to sand before a re-coat; just wash it well and go at it. As long as there's no wax or silicone on the surface, although even then I think it'll burn itself into the old finish. I re-coated one section of our floor where a recliner failed and caused some deep gouges and all I did was as they said, wash the floor well and apply the Waterlox as you would normally. Worked perfectly and I know for sure that the wife has used "Pledge" on furniture and the overspray surely found the floor and that stuff is just about pure silicone.

Terence, no pore fill, but like you I will sand it very fine, raising the grain a few times with a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water until it remains nearly fuzz-free, and proceed to wipe-on the finish. At this point there's enough very fine dust in the pores to act as a pore filler of sorts, but part of the "unfinished neck feel" is having some pores and slight texture. It's NOT for everyone and it doesn't look as fine as a typically finished neck, but it feels great to the left hand...
Author:  DannyV [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Thanks for that Mario.

Nice reno George! Walnut tops. Stylin'.

On the one that I have done Terence, besides the nice, silky feel, the FB masking aspect is a big plus. I masked the board but didn't worry about the frets. Removing the tape is just a matter of pealing it off. No edge to have to break through to avoid a chip or peel. For me this was great because I like to polish fret ends prior to finishing. I always seem to mess them up a bit by filing through the tape - nitro edge. Not an issue here. I like the look. I'm not sure if a shiny back strap would look good or not.
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Author:  Alex Kleon [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Great looking kitchen, George. I'm doing a kitchen now that is going to have walnut butcher block counters as well. I was a little dubious on how it would look, but not any more!
I used Waterlox for a fireplace mantle and some benches years ago, and the finish looked great, and easy to apply.

Alex
Author:  cphanna [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Drying oil finishes seem pretty forgiving to me. You can build a film if you wish, or leave it very thin. You asked how it might look on maple. This is a dyed maple neck, sanded to about 600 grit, then a thin film of shellac, then finished with numerous very thin coats of Tru Oil. I did about one coat a day. Business got in the way sometimes and several days went by before the next coat. On those days I did a very light buff with 0000 steel wool before applying the next coat. I didn't count, but I'm guessing I have about 12 coats on this neck. I did NOT polish the finish with a buffing wheel. Just a light rub with Mequaire's swirl remover on an old cotton t-shirt because I like the shine. If it gets too shiny for you, just buff it back with steel wool again. This neck isn't old. But if it starts to get thin or show grime in a few months I can easily clean it, buff it, and apply another coat. I think you would like an oiled maple neck.
Author:  Ron Belanger [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
To fill the pores with Waterlox I apply it with 400 wet /dry sandpaper a couple of times and wipe off with a soft cloth. One thing I do do with Waterlox to keep it from thickening is to decant it into 4oz cans and as I use it I collapse each can to keep it close to the cap.
Author:  DannyV [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
One Waterlox dealer between Ontario and the wet Coast. Actually very snowy coast today. $50 a qt and collect shipping by bus from a rather remote part of BC. I hope the Big Dog is kind to me otherwise it's going to be a very expensive neck treatment.

Thanks All
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Living in God's country is all well and good until you need something delivered from the outside world!! gaah

Alex
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
For us unfortunates in the UK, Waterlox is imported by our product rich cousins under the name American Wood Oil Transparent Gold. can be purchased here http://www.hutchisonflooring.co.uk/inde ... -lacquers/
Anyone know if Liberon Finishing Oil is as good as Waterlox (I've never used Waterlox)? It's a fraction of the price.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
I have no experience with Waterlox, so I can't tell you how they compare, but Liberon Finishing Oil is what Kevin Aram uses as a finish for his fine classical guitars, or so I've read on the Internet... I've used it on various projects (not on guitars), and it seems like fine product. It's similar to Rustins Danish oil, which is my standard for benchtops, tool handles etc. I guess they are both a varnish really, they should hold up fine on a neck. I usually use nitro on my instruments, necks and all, but I done a few with Epifanes varnish, and Tru oil, both worked well for this.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
I've used both the Rustins and the Liberon. There are a few English Classical Guitar makers who offer this as a finish. I think some of the Lute makers started using the stuff years ago.
In fact I once did a test using the Rustins and Liberon products by seeing how much build I could obtain and see if I could gauge the resultant hardness of these finishes. I ended up putting on a ridiculous number of 'coats', probably around 25 or 30. I left them for a couple of weeks and then rubbed down and polished the test pieces. You can certainly obtain a high gloss with them, just as you can with Tru Oil. Then I left them in a window and they sat there for over 6 months. Occasionally I would take the sample and try a scratch test. Difficult to truly gauge things from such an unscientific test. I'm sure they never got as hard as Shellac but they did seem to offer a bit more resistance than Tru Oil. They seemed close to my natural Copal varnish, which is 50% resin. Probably not unlike one of the 'shorter' modern Spar varnishes. Certainly not the glass like feel you get when trying to scratch a shellac flake. One way to test is to try your nail on the spill-over of the bottle/can, that is if you have a used bottle that's been tucked away on a shelf for a year or so.
Of course a scratch test isn't the same as a wear test.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
beautiful looking guitar Danny. Is that koa?

Very nice kitchen George. Great choice using walnut for the counter top
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Michael.N. wrote:
I've used both the Rustins and the Liberon. There are a few English Classical Guitar makers who offer this as a finish. I think some of the Lute makers started using the stuff years ago.
In fact I once did a test using the Rustins and Liberon products by seeing how much build I could obtain and see if I could gauge the resultant hardness of these finishes. I ended up putting on a ridiculous number of 'coats', probably around 25 or 30. I left them for a couple of weeks and then rubbed down and polished the test pieces. You can certainly obtain a high gloss with them, just as you can with Tru Oil. Then I left them in a window and they sat there for over 6 months. Occasionally I would take the sample and try a scratch test. Difficult to truly gauge things from such an unscientific test. I'm sure they never got as hard as Shellac but they did seem to offer a bit more resistance than Tru Oil. They seemed close to my natural Copal varnish, which is 50% resin. Probably not unlike one of the 'shorter' modern Spar varnishes. Certainly not the glass like feel you get when trying to scratch a shellac flake. One way to test is to try your nail on the spill-over of the bottle/can, that is if you have a used bottle that's been tucked away on a shelf for a year or so.
Of course a scratch test isn't the same as a wear test.


This Copal varnish sounds interesting. Where do you buy it from?
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
It's by lefranc & bourgeois. A Picture varnish. I get it from Cornellisen. It's a very small bottle and subsequently works out to be a lot more expensive than something like Epifanes. It comes ready to brush, no need to thin. You can tell it's an old fashioned natural resin oil varnish just from the smell. I used to make my own Pine resin varnish (dangerous) and this seems a touch harder. . . and safer.
You will need a UV cabinet, otherwise you'll be dealing with serious dust problems.
Author:  DannyV [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Neck Finish?
Joe Beaver wrote:
beautiful looking guitar Danny. Is that koa?

Very nice kitchen George. Great choice using walnut for the counter top

It is indeed Koa Joe. My new favourite back and side wood. I've got a few nice sets squirrelled away. The nicest is from Lance from the classifieds. Killer! Thanks Lance. That set was from Ebay. I wonder if I could write off a wood buying trip to Hawaii? ;)
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