Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - String height at saddle for Antes parlour?

Steve I've built 7 or 8 of these and of course got the brace on the wrong side on the first but the rest have been well received. I used both Mahogany and Rosewood, both IRW and BZ. Lutz and Sitka for the tops. The BZ/Lutz was the best. Here's a sound clip.

http://kennedyguitars.com/size-2/brazil ... ious-photo

Main mods were 1/4" bracing, and splaying the X to 93 degrees and lengthening the bridge to almost 7" to get the ends over the X. (I have one that is 6 years old and the top is holding fine)

Here are my specs for that guitar and pretty close for the others.

Scale 24.9

X angle 93 degrees
Conventional Martin style scalloping. Peaks about .5" high, height at deepest scallop around .32" X and .25" tone bar.

Top in the .100-.110 ballpark Thinned to around .90 .95 at the edges of the lower bout.

Bridge plate Maple around .093

Back around .100

Neck double tenon bolt-on carbon reinforced

Bridge BZ around 11/32" with a little less than 1/2" string clearance over the top.

Here are a couple of pictures of the bracing-

And here's a link to a build sequence for one.

http://s252.photobucket.com/user/terken ... all&page=1

These are specialty guitars and the tone depends a lot on the player. I've found they are easy to overdrive with a heavy handed style. I think a client would be disappointed if they thought this size would cover all their guitar needs. For the right style of music and the right player they are amazing. They also work great with a K&K pickup. Anyone contemplating a commission for one should really play one by the same builder--several times before deciding if it is right for them.

Here's Michael Johnson playing my first prototype with the tone bar on the wrong side. I always thought it was a little tubby and just kept it around as a shop guitar. He got a lot out of if that others including myself couldn't. The player is a BIG factor in tone.

http://kennedyguitars.com/size-2/

I love these little guys, good luck with yours.

Author:	Colin North [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:	String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Plan shows bridge height at 7mm, and saddle drawn just shy of 3mm higher (drawings correspond to written dimensions elsewhere) so string height is just under 10mm (0.39"), seems low for a SS, even for a small guitar. What do you use for a parlour?

Author:	Spyder [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Colin, I can't share anything of real insight here, but I am struggling with the same thing. I am building a parlor to that plan, and am trying to get this sorted out in my head. I don't know how to link to another thread on this forum, but if you look at mine called "fret board gaps" you can see some of the issues I am dealing with. Don't know if it will be any help, but might at least offer another piece of the puzzle. BTW, I just replied to it with an update on my progress, so for now it should be pretty close to this one on the forum list.

Author:	Colin North [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Thanks Phil, I've been following your thread.

Author:	Spyder [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
You're welcome, and if you get it figured out, please let me know!

Author:	RusRob [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
I am at the same point with mine. I am using the same plans and I noticed that as well. (I am using the LMI parlor kit but mine is custom orderd) However I am not using the bridge that was supplied. mine is an ebony one I made to match a late 1800's with the pointed ends. I am not actually using the plans to set up my geometry but doing what I know. My bridge is 3/8" and I have not made my saddle yet but so far everything looks to be correct. I don't have my fretboard glued down but I do have the neck angel set and with a straight edge on the fretboard I am just clearing the bridge by just under 1/16". By the time I seat the bridge to the top and get my saddle on it should be spot on. I just dismissed the drawing and went by what I know... I hope it doesn't bite me in the end (but I don't think it will). @Spyder, To link to another thread, just open another browser window and go to the thread you want and copy the URL. Then jump back to the post you are making and paste it in and select it. Then just click the URL button or just type in [url] in front of your pasted link and then [/url] behind it (I used large font to highlight what to type) Cheers, Bob

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String height at saddle for Antes parlour? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42762	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Clay S. [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Some where between 3/8ths and 1/2 inch should be fine if you are doing steel strings. Parlor guitars usually have thinner (lighter) tops that are more easily driven so having a tall bridge is not as critical. Personally I like 7/16ths.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
I just finished one from the Antes plan using a size 0 mold. The box was actually the 3rd one I made but it has been sitting since 2010. Anyway, I was not satisfied with the way it sounded. Had a couple of well-known pros look at it and they were polite but obviously not impressed with the sound either. So I cut the old top off. This one is getting a new Lutz top although I'm still not sure what I did that was so wrong. The box had a great drum sound when it was tapped after it was closed up. Mahogany back/sides. Stiff Euro spruce top was 0.095" in the middle and thinned to 0.090" around the edges for an average lengthwise deflection (18" centers) of 0.317" with a 5 lb bar in the center. Tapered braces were 1/4" and I tried to carve them light. Honduran rosewood bridge was 0.35" with saddle a bit high at 0.17" but still strings were only at 0.52" above the top so not too bad overall. Rosewood bridgeplate 0.100" thick. Guitar just did not have the sound I wanted when fingerpicked, just wasn't driving the top. Was only ok if flatpicked but that isn't good enough. Hope this is useful. It would be great if someone could provide a few pointers for those of us trying to use the Antes plan. Yes, I know the tone bar is backwards Attachment: Size0_FirstTop.JPG

Author:	Greg B [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Yeah, I'm making one of those too. Just pulled it off the shelf to finish it up as I'd been sidetracked by other commitments. Anyhow, FWIW, the plans spec the bridge thickness at 7.1mm (.28"). It's written on the BRIDGE VIEW "C-C", just to the lower left of the top view. String height isn't spec'd but I get 10mm too from measuring the plans. I think that 7.1/10mm is pretty reasonable for a parlor, especially one with a .09" thick top. I've used that bridge height and saddle height before on two different occasions. FWIW, both instruments sounded great. I'm sure there must be more experienced builders that could specify the differences that might be expected in tonal quality as the string height changes. Presumably, going higher will make it louder. I'm thinking now I'll probably try it at about 5/16", which is the lower range of 'standard' AFAIK.

Author:	Colin North [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
I'm at the stage of preparing the neck block extention angle after assembling the rims with blocks and linings then sanding the 25' radius in them. With a mock-up 60' radius UTB and 25' radius brace at the bridge position, I'm getting 2.85mm at the saddle position. Please forgive the poor quality picture. Attachment: Parlour.jpg Undressed FB with frets is 6.8mm thick, would project to 9.65mm above soundboard, say 9.5mm after dressing frets. 0.1mm relief and action at the 12th set at 2mm (I like about 2.2-1.8mm string clearance at 12th) gives 13,4mm at the saddle, which after the top rises maybe about 0.8-1mm due to string tension would mean a final string height above soundboard of about 12.6mm, near as dang it 1/2", maybe slightly lower after I sand the upper bout 25' radius at the rims to 60'. But any more suggestions would be welcome.

Author:	JasonM [ Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Colin, I just finished a pair of parlours, loosely based on that plan, although modified to 14 fret. I am 1/2" above the soundboard just in front of the bridge, but I complete the box before setting that. I use a 25' dish, sand the rims to that, brace everything but the UTB at 25', then glue the UTB's (I use two), dead flat. I add a second layer of soundboard inside (from the UTB, north, right up to the rim) so i can sand the area under the fretboard extension to project 1/8" high where the saddle will eventually be (and not leave it too thin). Once the box is fully complete, and I project to 1/8" high at the saddle, then I sand the neck (butt joint, bolt on), to align with the projection. Then when you add fretboard and frets, and a bit of top pulling up, you are in that 1/2" range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drgTe6H ... ata_player

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Steve I've built 7 or 8 of these and of course got the brace on the wrong side on the first but the rest have been well received. I used both Mahogany and Rosewood, both IRW and BZ. Lutz and Sitka for the tops. The BZ/Lutz was the best. Here's a sound clip. http://kennedyguitars.com/size-2/brazil ... ious-photo Main mods were 1/4" bracing, and splaying the X to 93 degrees and lengthening the bridge to almost 7" to get the ends over the X. (I have one that is 6 years old and the top is holding fine) Here are my specs for that guitar and pretty close for the others. Scale 24.9 X angle 93 degrees Conventional Martin style scalloping. Peaks about .5" high, height at deepest scallop around .32" X and .25" tone bar. Top in the .100-.110 ballpark Thinned to around .90 .95 at the edges of the lower bout. Bridge plate Maple around .093 Back around .100 Neck double tenon bolt-on carbon reinforced Bridge BZ around 11/32" with a little less than 1/2" string clearance over the top. Here are a couple of pictures of the bracing- And here's a link to a build sequence for one. http://s252.photobucket.com/user/terken ... all&page=1 These are specialty guitars and the tone depends a lot on the player. I've found they are easy to overdrive with a heavy handed style. I think a client would be disappointed if they thought this size would cover all their guitar needs. For the right style of music and the right player they are amazing. They also work great with a K&K pickup. Anyone contemplating a commission for one should really play one by the same builder--several times before deciding if it is right for them. Here's Michael Johnson playing my first prototype with the tone bar on the wrong side. I always thought it was a little tubby and just kept it around as a shop guitar. He got a lot out of if that others including myself couldn't. The player is a BIG factor in tone. http://kennedyguitars.com/size-2/ I love these little guys, good luck with yours.

Author:	JasonM [ Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Terence has also spec'd a case at Cedar Creek, that is a PERFECT fit for the body shape on the plans.

Author:	SteveSmith [ Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Terence Kennedy wrote: Steve I've built 7 or 8 of these and of course got the brace on the wrong side on the first but the rest have been well received. I used both Mahogany and Rosewood, both IRW and BZ. Lutz and Sitka for the tops. The BZ/Lutz was the best. Here's a sound clip. http://kennedyguitars.com/size-2/brazil ... ious-photo Main mods were 1/4" bracing, and splaying the X to 93 degrees and lengthening the bridge to almost 7" to get the ends over the X. (I have one that is 6 years old and the top is holding fine) Here are my specs for that guitar and pretty close for the others. Scale 24.9 X angle 93 degrees Conventional Martin style scalloping. Peaks about .5" high, height at deepest scallop around .32" X and .25" tone bar. Top in the .100-.110 ballpark Thinned to around .90 .95 at the edges of the lower bout. Bridge plate Maple around .093 Back around .100 Neck double tenon bolt-on carbon reinforced Bridge BZ around 11/32" with a little less than 1/2" string clearance over the top. Here are a couple of pictures of the bracing- And here's a link to a build sequence for one. http://s252.photobucket.com/user/terken ... all&page=1 These are specialty guitars and the tone depends a lot on the player. I've found they are easy to overdrive with a heavy handed style. I think a client would be disappointed if they thought this size would cover all their guitar needs. For the right style of music and the right player they are amazing. They also work great with a K&K pickup. Anyone contemplating a commission for one should really play one by the same builder--several times before deciding if it is right for them. Here's Michael Johnson playing my first prototype with the tone bar on the wrong side. I always thought it was a little tubby and just kept it around as a shop guitar. He got a lot out of if that others including myself couldn't. The player is a BIG factor in tone. http://kennedyguitars.com/size-2/ I love these little guys, good luck with yours. Terrence, Thank you very much for all of the information. They certainly aren't an all-around guitar but for 10 years the only acoustic I had was a Martin 0-16NY although I was mostly playing folk and fingerpicking. Didn't learn to use a flat pick till later.

Author:	Colin North [ Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: String height at saddle for Antes parlour?
Terence, thanks for the info/reassurance and great suggestions/pics. I've seen your site, guitars, nice, and useful tips for building too. I think I'll go with pretty much what I've got, maybe slightly mm lower (flatten the UTB in the middle). I knew there had to be someone out there who had built several of these.

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