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Z-poxy pore filling
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42516		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Wes Paul [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:27 am ]
Post subject:  Z-poxy pore filling
I am about to Finnish my latest guitar, an L00 style with curly walnut back and sides, curly maple binding, spanish cedar neck and redwood top. I have attached the neck prior to finnishing for the first time and have never worked with z-poxy I did watch Todd Sticks video which was very informative thanks Todd! However I wonder if anyone has any advice on pore filling the neck? Also if I fill the back and side will the binding look diferant on the top where I don't apply the z-poxy?
Author:  johnparchem [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Since we are on the subject ... I will use zpoxy with EIR and maple bindings. Does anyone seal the EIR first with shellac to avoid spreading the colored oils from the EIR on everything. I can put shellac just on the curly maple, but really would like to try not mudding the look of the EIR itself.

I know the shellac is happy on zpoxy, I am not so sure that zpoxy is happy on shellac.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
What Todd said. But I will add this: My bank gives out these thin plastic calendars and one year that are the size of a credit card. I asked the marketing department to give me a bunch of left overs. They are very flexible and I can bend them to conform to the neck when I squeegee off the z-poxy. Since I have a good supply of them, I use them on the box too. Anyway, they work well to get the excess off of the neck. Never tried an actual squeegee on the neck or box, but I imagine the flexible cards I use are a bit easier to conform to the neck than anything else.
Author:  Wes Paul [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Thanks Todd and Tony!!!!! Here is a few pics of what I'm working on. Do you recommend sealing the top before pore filling? One of my concerns was that the top
Edge of the binding might end up a different color from the sides. Should
I wipe it on the top
of the bindings on the last coat?
Author:  Wes Paul [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Thanks Todd! your video is really informative thanks again!
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Wes, that is one beautiful guitar! How'd you laminate the neck that way?
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
I would highly recommend using a hair dryer to make the Z poxy less viscous as you apply it. I've found with this method you can actually brush it on with a foam paint brush and have zero ridges (it goes on almost like paint) with which to contend. The fewer ridges, the less sanding, the less sanding, the less chance of sanding through.

Pat
Author:  Rob Flindall [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
+1 on Pat's post. I've just literally finished Zpoxy'ing and spraying my third guitar - a ribbon sapele with EIR bindings. I did a few things differently on this one than my last.

When I covered the soundboard and taped the perimeter, I used the blue Edge Lock tape - you know the stuff that prevents paint from bleeding under. Like Frog Tape but cheaper. I normally shellac the perimeter of the soundboard but took a chance and didn't this time to see how the tape worked. The tape worked beautifully. No bleed under of the Zpoxy and it released easily. I covered the soundboard lip of the EIR binding with tape.

I also warmed the two Zpoxy bottles in my hot hide glue warmer prior to mixing. It went on like warm butter. It spread really well and squeegee'd up well. I also found when the mixed Zpoxy in my cup started getting thick, I just held it back in the warm water and it helped.

I've now sprayed the entire guitar and it's curing in the garage. I snapped a pic for you to see that the EIR binding doesn't show any difference in coloring. What I don't know is whether there will be any difference over time.

Image

(Sorry - my iPhone wouldn't focus all that well)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Todd Stock wrote:
You won't get ridges on the guitar unless you fail to remove the excess epoxy...


For me, this is far easier said than done. I've watched Todd's videos several times, tried many different tools for applying it, tried thinning it etc but have never been able to get it on ridge or streak free until I warmed it up with a hair dryer.

I would encourage Todd's suggestion of a hybrid approach. Get as much off as you can with a plastic card or whatever, then warm it with a hair dryer and brush with a foam brush. Or even just doing the last coat where you only want to even up the wood colour from areas you sanded through, "painting" on the Z-poxy using heat will make things easier.

Pat
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
I find the Squeegee does a great job wrt ridges. I have only done 4 guitars so far, but I found the Z-poxy flowed better on the 3 HOG guitars I did vs the Madagascar Rosewood guitar for some reason.

Glenn
Author:  Wes Paul [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Thanks Beth!!!!

The neck laminate is just a stripe of walnut glued thru the middle of the neck blank and a small slab of walnut at the bottom of the heal stack. It turns out those to lines make for quicker carving of the neck because it gives you a visible center line and some lines around the heel for guidance.

Thanks to everyone for your posts on the topic to I feel confidant now in using z-poxy
Author:  Wes Paul [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Every guitar I build I get it ready for finishing and then just stare at it for weeks nervous ill mess it up.
For me the building is the fun part. I guess after enough finishing experience ill I joy it more knowing I won't ruin all my hard work.
Author:  Wes Paul [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Hey fellas!

I got my first coat of z-poxy on but I dripped it on my redwood top!!! Is it better to let it dry and try and sand it out or clean it up with alcohol?
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Probably to late now but I would get it off with DNA. You could go over it several times with a clean rag wetted in DNA and remove 99%
Author:  Wes Paul [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
I just went for it it didn't all come out there is still a spot there. Also the alchahole seems to have drawn up some reddish resin or something to the surface. Ill let it dry over night and try sanding. I was wondering if it doesn't come out maybe I should thin some z-poxy and brush it on to get a uniform look. Any chance that might deaden the sound board?
Author:  Chris.Conery [ Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Heating the Zpoxy is an interesting technique I hadn't heard of. For the final coat (usually the third) I thin the Zpoxy with some pure ethanol. Works like a charm.
Author:  LarryH [ Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Been heating Z-Poxy for a long time as well - works very well and is very easy to try and see if you like it.
Author:  Wes Paul [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Second coat went on a little ruff. It seemed smooth going on but I am having to sand a lot to get it level.
I sanded thru slightly in a few spots. I am thinking of thinning or heating the next application. It was about 50 outside on the last coat I think if it's thinned or warmer that it shoul level itself more.
Any thoughts?

How do you heat it?
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
You can spread some out over and area with a squeegee or old credit card then warm it up with a hair dryer and smooth it out with a foam brush. I've also just put down a small blob of Z-poxy and gone directly with the hair dryer and foam brush. That also worked for me. I found that the Z-poxy got thin enough that it would both go up into the brush and out again, i.e. spreading like paint.

Pat
Author:  Wes Paul [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Thanks Pat! I will level it real good before the third coat and try that. Particularly doing the neck with just a gloved finger turned out real sloppy made for a lot of sanding to smooth it out. I think after a few guitars I'll get it down better.
Author:  naccoachbob [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
When using the foam brush, I'm guessing you would use a different brush for each coat. Is that right?
Thanks,
Bob
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Yes on the fresh foam brush for each coat. They're cheap.

Pat
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Pat, Larry, and others using heat with Z-Poxy -- I understand you are finding this method works well to achieve a nice smooth coat of epoxy that then requires minimal sanding. What I'm wondering, though, is what you are finding in terms of how well the less viscous heated epoxy fills the pores.

I'm doing a pore fill with epoxy (Z-Poxy) for the first time right now. Reading what I can find here about different approaches people use, it's interesting that some find that thickening the epoxy seems to improve how effectively the pores get filled, while others are extolling the benefits of thinning the epoxy (with heat or with alcohol).

I also understand that thinning the final coat one way or another works well for the purpose of evening out the color once you're at that stage where the pores are already filled. But it sounds like some of you are talking about thinning it during the pore filling stage, so I'm wondering if you've found A) that the pores actually seem to fill more easily with the less viscous epoxy, B) that they fill less easily, but the trade off of having less sanding between applications makes it worth it to you, or C) that they fill equally well AND you have less sanding, so you're like bliss

Thanks!

(I started another thread about pore filling with epoxy, so come on over there with any more tips you may have if you like!)
Author:  weslewis [ Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
I use 2 foam brushes for each application , the first for applying the zpoxy then keeping the heat going I use a second to smooth out and absorb the excess z poxy , with a little practice there is virtually no sanding needed, another added benefit is you keep the stuff off your hands....
Author:  LarryH [ Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Z-poxy pore filling
Todd I find the heat allows the Z-Poxy to flow out better and really wet the wood, popping the grain but if it's too thin, (too warm) it will not fill the pores as well as a more viscous mix will as you've suspected. But with a thinner mixture it can be applied, as Pat suggests, with a foam brush which can actually leave a thicker amount of epoxy than using a squeegee or credit card and filling the pores as well or better.

Another option is use a squeegee and then heat to level any of small ridges a squeegee can leave reducing sanding. There's no real down side that I've found with any method but I have found that the squeegee method can pull most of the epoxy out of the pores as you try and get it perfectly level so a combination of squeegee and heat can work really well. I'm going to pore fill some Sapele today and I'll post back as I try and remember my exact method.
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